Coming to WA in 2012 ?? - Beware.

Hello members & guests,
With the current price of gold, is it any wonder that there is little ground not pegged? However if you check with the WA Mines Department there are PL's being submitted every day. So there is land available for those who want to put in the hard yards.
It is totally outrageous to suggest that all lease pegs should be displayed and kept in perfect condition?? If you know where the peg should be, why do need it displayed? Even if they are displayed the average PL is 2km X 1km with a few pegs in between so the chance of seeing them is minuscule in the WA mulga. Going to a preferred area it is very simple to get lease boundary details, enter these details into your GPS and know exactly where you are.
APLA & the WA Government are approachable and the current rules laid down are by far the best in the country to sustain our activity as prospectors for generations to come!
The majority of the Mining Companies are approachable and have indemnity forms to complete, (names, vehicle registration and Miners Right) which gives you permission to "detect only" all their ground away from active mining and haulage roads.
If a Company blocks your permission, applications for 20A permits are simple and cost a miserly few $$'s, one 20A gives you 10 blocks that would take months to detect thoroughly.
Mining Companies & Pastoralists cannot refuse permission for 20A holders to detect in areas away from active mining and stock.
It is totally incorrect to say that the Goldfields are locked away and there is no ground available for prospectors.
Do your research, apply for the necessary permits and you can get out there detecting with out any legal complications.

Peter

Excellent post Nightjar - As you rightly said - do your research. Unfortunatly some always want to make it seem complicated. Also the mines dept. are always vey helpful.
Geronimo.

Hi Peter,

That was an informed and helpful post, thanks...
Your situation in WA mirrors what we see here in the US as far as
knowing your rights and taking responsibility for staying within them.
Sometimes you have to actually do a little research and give it a bit of thought
before you simply head off into an area.

I agree that probably most of us have inadvertently or otherwise, hunted in areas we shouldn't have been in,
but there are no excuses for doing it on purpose.

The fact that you can even approach major mining companies and have the opportunity to detect on their leases
is hugely beneficial and fairly unknown in the US where it is considered "trespassing" or worse.
Not saying that occasionally we are allowed on company leases, but it is fairly rare.

20A permits are something I am not too familiar with but they sound like a good thing for
the recreational prospector. Can you point me to a website where I can read more about it?

Again, an informative post about detecting possibilities in WA
that seems head and shoulders above anything we have set up in the States.

Morning Flakmagnet,
If you use the links BeepingPete put up in his opening post you can find all the info required to prospect in WA.
Here is a link to take you straight too the 20A form.

http://www.dmp.wa.gov.au/documents/Form1A.pdf

Cheers
Peter

Yeah Pete, a very informative post. The only part I don't agree with is.

"It is totally outrageous to suggest that all lease pegs should be displayed and kept in perfect condition??"

It is totally outrageous to suggest that nothing is better than something, GPS can be affected by many things, datum posts can confirm borders.

This is likely the reason that such is a requirement (to my understanding) in every other state in the country.

As you well know every lease in WA is surveyed on approval and the corner pegs have brass tag identification, can't be more permanent than that.
What has been suggested here is that lease holders are responsible for maintaining indications where prospectors can go.
Heaven forbid next you will indicating that lease holders have a bus load of tour guides on every tenement.
Prospectors need to be responsible and seek permission and not rely on lease holders.
As previously mentioned Mining Companies and Pastoralists are tolerant with prospectors who want to enter leased areas with the intention to camp and detect if the required permission is granted.


Here is an example agreement;

INDEMNITY AGREEMENT



This agreement is made the…… …………..day of……………… ……………….2011

Between:

(“The Tenement Holder” or the “Company”)

and:

The persons whose name and address appears in the Schedule (“The Prospectors”)

Whereas:

a. The Tenement Holder is the registered owner of the mining tenements (“The Tenement”).

b. A group of prospectors (“Prospectors”) has requested the right to enter the Tenement and the Tenement Holder has agreed to grant such right subject to the following terms and conditions. The Prospectors are more specifically identified in the Schedule.

Agreement and Indemnity

1. The Tenement Holder hereby grants to the Prospectors the right to enter and traverse the Tenements for the period (“The Period”). This right is specific to the Prospectors’ only and shall not be assigned or transferred.

2

3. The Prospector hereby covenants and agrees with the Tenement Holder:

a. not to interfere with any or cause any damage to any equipment, improvements and activities of the Tenement Holders while on the Tenements.
b. to obey any reasonable request from the Tenements Holder and move from any specific area or leave the tenement.
c. not to do anything that would cause the Tenement Holder to be in breach of any law, including, but not limited to, the Mining Act 1978.
d. to hereby waive all and any claim or action or right which he or his successors might otherwise have arising out of or as a result of any injury, damage or loss of any nature whatsoever which The Prospector may suffer or sustain in any manner during the said Period whilst on the Tenements.
e. to rehabilitate in accordance with the requirements of the Department of Minerals and Energy any damage caused by any activities and to leave any campsite in a clean tidy condition.
f. not to take firearms on to the tenements.
g. not to interfere with any existing gridding, pegs, drill holes, samples or survey marks which may be present.
h. to inform the Department of Mines and obtain all necessary approvals prior to the commencement of work including the payment of any performance bonds deemed necessary.

4. Details of the Prospector have to be completed in the Schedule and provided in advance to the Tenement Holder. No other people may join the group.

5. The Prospectors is to advise at the completion of all activities details of the time spent on the Tenements, the cost of all activity completed and the quantity of gold discovered and its location.

6. If the Tenements are over private or leasehold land, on arrival the Prospector should inform the owner or manager of the property of his/her proposed activities and shall not cause any damage or interference to stock or crop and shall leave all gates as found.

7. The Tenement Holder and the Prospector agree to the further terms and conditions as set out in Item 6 of the Schedule (“Further Conditions”).





……………………………………………………/ ……………………………………………
Name Signature




THE SCHEDULE

The “Prospectors” means the people identified below.

While all due care will be taken, no responsibility is implied. Each individual is responsible to his or her actions and agrees to the indemnity in Clause 3(d).

Each individual is to be self sufficient in food, fuel & water for the period. Every member attending is to treat the information given here as confidential until after the gathering has been completed.

1.0 The 2011 Gathering will be held in the .................................................... area
2.0 This is a remote area so make sure your vehicles are mechanically sound & be able to make the trip safely."

I/We hereby agree to the above terms and acknowledge the advice.

Prospector



……………………………………………………/ ……………………………………………
Name Signature

Address:



Vehicle Registration:


Prospector



……………………………………………………/ ……………………………………………
Name Signature

Address:



Vehicle Registration:

OK Pete, i'm with you now!

Thanks for example agreement;

Hi Everyone
Here is a link to a gold info site for prospecting in WA.
Bill & Sue have aquired lots of info on how to apply for permission on leases,20A,letters,ETC.Good site if you havent been in WA prospecting before.

http://www.gold-prospecting-wa.com/

Cheers Jon.

Most people who have leases do it for a living and might work
their leases at different times of the year. Not just in the 'season'.

Also if you are going to sell CD's with 'X' marks the spot that is
only going to cause a big jump in numbers going to those places
and in turn up set the balance that was there.

Just another point of view.

Alan

Peter, with all due respect I think you miss the main point of my post and that is: casual prospectors should not be restricted as we are by government over regulating things. As I said, in other states, such as Victoria it is quite OK for prospectors to detect on EL's. In fact in Victoria pretty much all state forests are open to detecting. There are some small areas not open but they are tiny. A Miners Right in Victoria gives you more rights than it does in WA and to make it even better for the prospector with a metal detector there are very few private claims (leases) in Victoria. If we all agree to work within the parametres the WA government has put in our way we are agreeing to be caged by this forever. By what right does a big company take out an EL that restricts the use of this land to prospectors, especially when the company is not at all interested in the gold obtained by the prospector?

Had our forefathers in the 1890's been restricted in the way we are there would have been very few of the big holes we now see on all the old dry blow patches. Why? Because those rich patches would never have been found by prospectors and WA would have had to wait a long time before the current boom in gold mining got under way. Why is that? Because very few mining companies have any greenfield mines in operation. Nearly ALL gold mines in operation in WA today were found by prospectors in the 1890's and early 1900's. This is why you go to a spot marked as an old dry blow patch and there is a thumping great hole, (never to be filled) and few prospects for the casual detector operator.

As for the scheduel. I think 3, D asks that the person entering the property waive their rights to compensation etc upon signing the paper. This doesn't work. Every Australian is born with inherent rights that cannot be signed away so signing of a document such as the one in your post would be of no use in this event. If injured I can still sue the company despite signing a document to the contrary.

The main problem with the mining comapies is insurance and they know this. A document such as the one in you post is of no value and the companies know this they also know that as a bluff it mostly works as few people know of their inherent rights. So therin lies another problem, how to change the insurance system to allow us onto el's controlled by large companies?

There is only one way I know of and that is for public liability as we know it to be abolished and every man woman and child to be accountable for their own actions. The way to acheive this is to make it mandatory that every man, woman and child be covered by their own private public liability. If this were to be implimented the yearly cost would be very small and easily affordable by everyone. No private insurance, no claim. This would cut the liabilty cost to companies both big and small and make business much easier for even those small business's that are crippled by insurance.

But as for working within the system, I am not interested in doing so as it only lends credibilty to the draconian government demands.

All this is pretty much a wish list but if we could make it happen the entire country would benefit.

Alan from WA points out that selling CD's with X marks the spot could upset the balance of things. Alan, this is the way things work. Every book or map with old mines and dry blow patches marked on it changes things. Change is good and I look forward to being involved in change, especially that which involves change that makes things better for the prospector. As for small lease holders having more than one lease: I have no problem with them having two, say one in the north they can work during winter and one in the south that can be worked the rest of the year. Any more than that is simply greedy as they can only work one claim at a time.

Cheers, Jim

"Also if you are going to sell CD's with 'X' marks the spot that is
only going to cause a big jump in numbers going to those places
and in turn upset the balance that was there."
Well put Alan.Hits the nail right on the head.
This has been of concern to some of us for a long time.
DaveM

before I signed up I read a lot of the topics but it now appears what I thought would be an interesting hobby has now turned into a nightmare.
WA miners right, went and got one love it or hate it but I now ask the question, what rights does it really give me. now it seems I gotta get a 20A, insurance to cover accidents and god knows what else.
this doesn't sound like a very good hobby to me, it could get expensive. think I'll take up gardening.

G'day Snuggs2012

You've only mentioned the cheap stuff yet, wait till you get to the price for a detector.

cheers dave

What a load of BS

Next the story will be... what an a/hole David De'Havilland is for putting together the gold & ghosts books,
and how dare doug stone promote trespassing by releasing vic goldfield maps, and god forsake, dont even
mention john tully and his great maps on the vic fields or etc etc the list goes on and on... oh! and dont
forget poor old jim foster, a bloke trying to have a go and help get people on the gold..


Get Real

Ahhhh Them Where The Days....the good old days where have they gone, I know what ya sayin beepinpete, fuel was cheap gold was plentiful wide open spaces and no one ta hassle ya. Ahhhh Them Where The Days....

Davsgold

Indeed they were, 300 9volt or D cells for a weeks detecting,smokes 80c a packet and beer not much more a pint,
tiny little geo picks to dig our gold cause we didnt need to excavate for it, and Paul hogan & strop making us laugh
on the telly

Ahhhhhhhh Bliss pure Bliss.

Granite,
I think it is yourself who is missing the point;
"casual prospectors should not be restricted as we are by government over regulating things. As I said, in other states, such as Victoria it is quite OK for prospectors to detect on EL's."
WA prospectors CAN detect on EL's if you apply yourself and not expect tenement holders to bow to your needs.

"If injured I can still sue the company despite signing a document to the contrary."
"A document such as the one in you post is of no value and the companies know this they also know that as a bluff it mostly works as few people know of their inherent rights."
So you head out with your worthless indemnity agreement and have in the back of your mind that if you stub your toe on a rock you know you can still sue. We should always be responsible for our own actions. Once again you are not being responsible and probably don't realise the damage you are doing to prospectors gaining access.
Any mining/government official reading your rant can simply withdraw indemnity access.

"But as for working within the system, I am not interested in doing so as it only lends credibilty to the draconian government demands."
So be it, if you wish to enter WA with it's draconian demands and prospect illegally, expect the penalties if caught.
Many prospectors have been and currently using the system for years which is very simple to use and allows access to ground for a lifetime and the coming generations.

Straying slightly off the subject. At last count 15 prospectors in WA became lost in 2011, they weren't responsible for their own actions. The last was only 1.8km's from his camp, no water, insufficient clothing etc. He had lit a fire and was waiting for authorities to find him? Will he sue the offending company because they hadn't erected "camp this way", road signs etc.................

As one geologist once said to me years ago which is in line with one of your comments; "You prospectors scratch around on the surface picking up the scraps and we miners do the rest."
This is probably a win win situation, no different to the 1800's prospectors who moved on once all the alluvial gold was retrieved, sold their plots to mining companies who did the rest.

I go over to W.A. each year(since 2003) and generally am happy with the Fossicking Rules. I think that W.A. is probably the "free-est" State of all. There are a couple of areas that might be improved. Pastoral leaseholders need educating on the "rights" of 20A permit holders. And E.L. holders should also recognize us as legitimate operators. A lot don't.
I also think Australians are over-regulated generally with too many prohibitive laws. Maybe that was what "Granite" meant.

Some people should remember that although we may be a pain in the RS we bring our money with us. And very few show a profit on return to the East.

Regards Roger.

Hi Peter, I don't know how I can miss the point of my own post but there you are

Prospectors in Vic don't have to ask anyones permission to detect on EL's.

I would never sue anyone for something caused by my own actions. The law on your rights is simply the way it is - you cannot sign them away.

As for being caught for not working within the government system, if I get caught I am ready to wear the consequences but I work within my own code of ethics and they are: If I stray on where I'm not supposed to be and are asked to move on I do so immediately (this has happened only once in 10 years).

I Willingly work with big companies and abide by their rules as much as I can. (This worked well for us with St Barbara and I was the only one out of 70 odd people applying for and being granted permission to get back to the company with the information they required.)

We never camp near water. We fill in our holes and don't burn foil in our campfires. When we move on you wouldn't know we'd been there.

As for being lost? We use a map, compass and the car odermetre when looking for pathes to detect and our common sense and hand held radios when out detecting and have never been lost in WA or anywhere else. We do not use a GPS as they are not necessary to find your way around. The old blokes never needed them and neither do I so why should I be forced into learning how to use a complicated bit of gear that I don't need.

And for what it is worth, we have WA miners rights.

Cheers, Jim

Granite,

If everyone was doing what you are doing
there would be no need whatsoever to be having this discussion
but the reality is, many are not and we all get lumped in with them.

It is so simple to find the inevitable screw-up and blame the lot
especially if you have an agenda you are pursuing.
Unfortunately the burden of people operating outside the rules falls on all of us.
Reminds me of Bob Dylan's lines: "To live outside the law, you must be honest."
Truer words have never been spoken.

(as for your comment about missing the point of your own post - that was hilarious)

Peter,

I read your informed posts with interest
and although I am not a fan of regulations, guidelines, restrictions, forms to fill out and the like,
it seems WA, if it does not get too much more restrictive,
is making the attempt to make a tough situation, workable for most everyone -
at least that is the impression I get from what I have read.

So dont bother coming to the Northern Territory either ...
as you will needs reems of Identification ...approvals ... and you can only take out 100 grams.
As per the latest Mining Act and Regulations are in force on monday 07 NOV 2011
http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Minerals_Energy/Content/File/MineralTitlesAct/MineralTitlesRegulations.pdf
will probably follow suit in other states
cheers
Gef

gef50

I did read about that and, like you, find it nuts.
Did the miners up there have a chance to have any say in that set of regulations?
it doesn't sound like it.

HI Flak
I dont think so ... but I reckon the pastorlists had a heavy hand in it .. while the pollies had their hands in the pastorlists pockets ...
Someone is going to bed with someone
TIme to go covert

Gef50

Mate while your suiting up in your camo play this, volume flat out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4kj0eZWGh4

Helps with the mindset

Ye mate feel tis going to be like that


tks
gef


" I prospect and I vote"

Point taken referring to YOUR post Jim. Had a laugh myself how we have to be politically correct with what we write.
The point I was referring to was the initial post by Pete (Beepinpete)
Cheers


Peter

Hi gef,

yeah that is a huge bed those folks jump into.
the US has many beds with people jumping into them.
it would almost be comical if it weren't so dangerous to everyones rights.

The only thing that can help in the long run is to stay up-to-date on what needs to be done
o put a stop to being hounded to death by regulations designed to hamper our rights
and, just as important, to educate others.
This forum, and the people who take the time to put their thoughts down,
does it's share.

It is especially off-putting to realize most of these 'law makers' idea of being outdoors
is to open the window in their office.
Maddening...

Nightjar wrote:Point taken referring to YOUR post Jim. Had a laugh myself how we have to be politically correct with what we write.
The point I was referring to was the initial post by Pete (Beepinpete)
Cheers


Peter

who said we have to be PC?? the fight back starts!

Mura

Im keeping my GOB shut on the PC thing or am i ???

To me, PC = being a Trendy New Aged kinda bloke that tippy toes around, ever
scared to say the wrong thing and upset 2% of the general public

BTW: i'll have the cous cous & pine nut pizza, with added Lipozomes & a squirt of Nivia for Men

I always thought PC meant Personal Computer. I was wrong again
And I'll have a pizza with the lot please