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Post  alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 am

Dear Fellow Prospectors,
                                             First, I want to say to all our Victorian friends how we sympathise with you during your forced containment, we all feel for you, whether your frustrations be cabin fever or inability to get some relief from the gold fever. Soon you will be out there again with renewed excitement and vigor, those nuggets will not be safe anymore and the gold price might even be much higher.
Secondly, I want to ask you to put aside whatever political philosophy you adhere to and consider all that I have to say. I can’t stand by and hold my tongue when one of you, your family or friends could die because I didn’t speak out.

It is clear especially in the US, that what a person understands about this virus is directly related to the political leaning of the source from which they glean their knowledge, whether it be from the Left, Right, or straight up and down. Friends this virus is apolitical, it doesn’t care who you vote for, it simply wants to use your body as a breeding platform. Also, how you are treated after contracting this virus is often dependent upon the political leaning of the state authorities and even medical advisors who direct them.

So, let’s put politics aside from this, politics has no business dictating how your Doctor should treat you, they swore to abide by the Hippocratic oath and do nothing that would knowingly harm you, that means we should pay attention to what they are saying, and thousands are saying the same thing, and that is what Adrian recently pointed out, Zinc is a key component to stopping the corona virus and rendering it impotent.

Please don’t throw up your hands and dismiss all this as a crackpot idea before you consider carefully what I have to say, it could save your life.

Zinc is a very potent antiviral, it works by interfering with the transcription machinery of the virus which it uses to replicate itself. All corona viruses and most viruses for that matter share a very similar RNA-dependent RNA polymerase enzyme mechanism or transcription machine. A problem arises though, Zinc must be within the cell before or very soon after the virus gains entry so it can stop it slicing up and rearranging your cells DNA into copies of itself.

Globally, an estimated 2 billion of us have a diet seriously deficient in Zinc. Countries with intensive agriculture production are the worst as heavy cropping depletes ground reserves of this mineral. Even good sources of Zinc such as beef and lamb if raised on deficient land will not nourish you sufficiently.
There is more to the story though. Zinc and other minerals such as Calcium and Magnesium cannot just knock on the door of a cell and gain entry, it requires a transporter molecule with a key to the cell wall. The transporter must lock onto the mineral ion of Zinc, or whatever and channel it into the cell interior where it is then ready and waiting for any unwanted invader.

If you’ve ever suffered night cramps where your muscles lock up in an excruciatingly painful attempt to tear themselves free from ligament and bone, then you were likely experiencing a lack of magnesium in your muscle cells. In the past if you were a diabetic who tend to suffer this regularly you may have been prescribed not magnesium, but quinine. This is because quinine is an ionophore, meaning it is a transport molecule that enables magnesium to enter the cell and relieve the source of the cramp. Quinine can also transport Zinc.

There were many side effects that could occur with heavy or long-term use of quinine, which was the primary malaria drug, so it was purified to chloroquine and then later hydroxychloroquine which has almost no side effects if used in appropriate dosages.
This is one of mechanisms by which Zinc combined with hydroxychloroquine can lessen the likelihood of complications from Covid-19.
Another mechanism by which hydroxychloroquine alone can interfere with the virus is by binding to sialic acid receptors which lessens the availability of the ACE2 cell entry points, stopping the virus outside the cell wall, and thirdly by raising the endosomal pH which like Zinc makes the environment more hostile to the replication process.

Many of the studies purported to show none, little, or even adverse effects from hydroxychloroquine either didn’t use Zinc or they started the protocol much too late and in the later used toxic dosages. Remember I said earlier that Zinc had to be available when the virus entered the cell to offer any benefit. Giving hydroxychloroquine once the viral load has spread to reach a point where breathing difficulty arises, is far too late, and this is what many of the studies did. But contrary to what you will read on many politically biased sources there are loads of studies showing early intervention often reduces the symptoms to that of a simple cold, even in susceptible persons. Links are provided below.

Ultimately, I want to share an interesting point that may have been posted elsewhere, I don’t know, but if so, it will be reinforced. There is a common molecule that is a Zinc ionophore (transporter) and it so happens that if we are deficient in Zinc, we will most likely be deficient in this also. It’s called Quercetin, and it is readily available as a supplement. I would advise anyone who suspects they may have caught the virus and your Doctor will not provide hydroxychloroquine, to take Quercetin along with Zinc preferably well before you feel any chest discomfort. It will not provide the other two mechanisms of action that hydroxychloroquine does, but there’s no harm in trying, it is a simple supplement. Some Doctors also suggest taking Vitamin C along with this as there could be a greater synergistic effect.

This has made me realise I need to increase the amount of seaweed in my garden to ensure my homegrown veges are rich in Zinc and all the other minerals now becoming so depleted in commercial crops.

So, if we pay attention to the Doctors who have no vested interest in all this, some of whom have since been fired from their positions, and or humiliated and discredited by biased governance and politically steered press for simply doing their job of looking out for the good of us, common folk, we will get to the truth.

Politically motivated medical advisors are calling for gold standard study results before they will endorse a treatment regimen, meanwhile people are dying while they wait, the truth is already observationally available and under the circumstances provide abundant proof of the effectiveness and tolerance.
Countries that have employed the Zinc+ hydroxychloroquine protocol early in the disease progression have had fewer deaths.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. DPM


This image is taken from a whitepaper produced by an Association of Doctors numbering over 600, it provides links to dozens of studies showing the benefits of early Zn+HCQ intervention.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. CFR

A link to the Doctors whitepaper, a must-read document from a fully reliable source.
Drs Whitepaper

Direct links to some studies that show benefits if the dosage is not inflated to toxic levels and intervention is implemented before complications onset. Had they also used Zinc orders of magnitude better results could have been realized, because of all 3 modes of operation in action.

Outcomes of 3,737 COVID-19 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine/ azithromycin and other regimens in Marseille, France: A retrospective analysis
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302817

Clinical Efficacy of Chloroquine derivatives in COVID-19 Infection: Comparative meta-analysis between the Big data and the real world
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2052297520300615

Treatment with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and combination in patients hospitalized with COVID-19
https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1201971220305348

Stay safe everyone and we'll see you back in the field.
Kev.


Last edited by alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : enboldering)
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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:02 am

alchemist wrote:Dear Fellow Prospectors,
                                             First, I want to say to all our Victorian friends how we sympathise with you during your forced containment, we all feel for you, whether your frustrations be cabin fever or inability to get some relief from the gold fever. Soon you will be out there again with renewed excitement and vigor, those nuggets will not be safe anymore and the gold price might even be much higher.
Secondly, I want to ask you to put aside whatever political philosophy you adhere to and consider all that I have to say. I can’t stand by and hold my tongue when one of you, your family or friends could die because I didn’t speak out.

It is clear especially in the US, that what a person understands about this virus is directly related to the political leaning of the source from which they glean their knowledge, whether it be from the Left, Right, or straight up and down. Friends this virus is apolitical, it doesn’t care who you vote for, it simply wants to use your body as a breeding platform. Also, how you are treated after contracting this virus is often dependent upon the political leaning of the state authorities and even medical advisors who direct them.

So, let’s put politics aside from this, politics has no business dictating how your Doctor should treat you, they swore to abide by the Hippocratic oath and do nothing that would knowingly harm you, that means we should pay attention to what they are saying, and thousands are saying the same thing, and that is what Adrian recently pointed out, Zinc is a key component to stopping the corona virus and rendering it impotent.

Please don’t throw up your hands and dismiss all this as a crackpot idea before you consider carefully what I have to say, it could save your life.

Zinc is a very potent antiviral, it works by interfering with the transcription machinery of the virus which it uses to replicate itself. All corona viruses and most viruses for that matter share a very similar RNA-dependent RNA polymerase enzyme mechanism or transcription machine. A problem arises though, Zinc must be within the cell before or very soon after the virus gains entry so it can stop it slicing up and rearranging your cells DNA into copies of itself.

Globally, an estimated 2 billion of us have a diet seriously deficient in Zinc. Countries with intensive agriculture production are the worst as heavy cropping depletes ground reserves of this mineral. Even good sources of Zinc such as beef and lamb if raised on deficient land will not nourish you sufficiently.
There is more to the story though. Zinc and other minerals such as Calcium and Magnesium cannot just knock on the door of a cell and gain entry, it requires a transporter molecule with a key to the cell wall. The transporter must lock onto the mineral ion of Zinc, or whatever and channel it into the cell interior where it is then ready and waiting for any unwanted invader.

If you’ve ever suffered night cramps where your muscles lock up in an excruciatingly painful attempt to tear themselves free from ligament and bone, then you were likely experiencing a lack of magnesium in your muscle cells. In the past if you were a diabetic who tend to suffer this regularly you may have been prescribed not magnesium, but quinine. This is because quinine is an ionophore, meaning it is a transport molecule that enables magnesium to enter the cell and relieve the source of the cramp. Quinine can also transport Zinc.

There were many side effects that could occur with heavy or long-term use of quinine, which was the primary malaria drug, so it was purified to chloroquine and then later hydroxychloroquine which has almost no side effects if used in appropriate dosages.
This is one of mechanisms by which Zinc combined with hydroxychloroquine can lessen the likelihood of complications from Covid-19.
Another mechanism by which hydroxychloroquine alone can interfere with the virus is by binding to sialic acid receptors which lessens the availability of the ACE2 cell entry points, stopping the virus outside the cell wall, and thirdly by raising the endosomal pH which like Zinc makes the environment more hostile to the replication process.

Many of the studies purported to show none, little, or even adverse effects from hydroxychloroquine either didn’t use Zinc or they started the protocol much too late and in the later used toxic dosages. Remember I said earlier that Zinc had to be available when the virus entered the cell to offer any benefit. Giving hydroxychloroquine once the viral load has spread to reach a point where breathing difficulty arises, is far too late, and this is what many of the studies did. But contrary to what you will read on many politically biased sources there are loads of studies showing early intervention often reduces the symptoms to that of a simple cold, even in susceptible persons. Links are provided below.

Ultimately, I want to share an interesting point that may have been posted elsewhere, I don’t know, but if so, it will be reinforced. There is a common molecule that is a Zinc ionophore (transporter) and it so happens that if we are deficient in Zinc, we will most likely be deficient in this also. It’s called Quercetin, and it is readily available as a supplement. I would advise anyone who suspects they may have caught the virus and your Doctor will not provide hydroxychloroquine, to take Quercetin along with Zinc preferably well before you feel any chest discomfort. It will not provide the other two mechanisms of action that hydroxychloroquine does, but there’s no harm in trying, it is a simple supplement. Some Doctors also suggest taking Vitamin C along with this as there could be a greater synergistic effect.

This has made me realise I need to increase the amount of seaweed in my garden to ensure my homegrown veges are rich in Zinc and all the other minerals now becoming so depleted in commercial crops.

So, if we pay attention to the Doctors who have no vested interest in all this, some of whom have since been fired from their positions, and or humiliated and discredited by biased governance and politically steered press for simply doing their job of looking out for the good of us, common folk, we will get to the truth.

Politically motivated medical advisors are calling for gold standard study results before they will endorse a treatment regimen, meanwhile people are dying while they wait, the truth is already observationally available and under the circumstances provide abundant proof of the effectiveness and tolerance.
Countries that have employed the Zinc+ hydroxychloroquine protocol early in the disease progression have had fewer deaths.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. DPM


This image is taken from a whitepaper produced by an Association of Doctors numbering over 600, it provides links to dozens of studies showing the benefits of early Zn+HCQ intervention.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. CFR

A link to the Doctors whitepaper, a must-read document from a fully reliable source.
Drs Whitepaper

Direct links to some studies that show benefits if the dosage is not inflated to toxic levels and intervention is implemented before complications onset. Had they also used Zinc orders of magnitude better results could have been realized, because of all 3 modes of operation in action.

Outcomes of 3,737 COVID-19 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine/ azithromycin and other regimens in Marseille, France: A retrospective analysis
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302817

Clinical Efficacy of Chloroquine derivatives in COVID-19 Infection: Comparative meta-analysis between the Big data and the real world
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2052297520300615

Treatment with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and combination in patients hospitalized with COVID-19
https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1201971220305348

Stay safe everyone and we'll see you back in the field.
Kev.

Can you show us any double blind randomized studies using a large number of subjects that has been published in a peer reviewed medical journal that demonstrate that HCQ +zinc+azithromycin is of benefit in treating covid patients? All of the studies you have alluded to above have serious flaws in methodology and hence conclusions!

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Post  alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:17 am

Doug stop being a complete nuisance.
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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:37 am

alchemist wrote:Doug stop being a complete nuisance.


Here is a small example of one of the flaws in just one of the studies( COVID-19 Outpatients – Early Risk-Stratified Treatment with Zinc Plus Low Dose Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin: A Retrospective Case Series Study) you sight.
The main problem with this work is that the demographics of the control group are not reported, so we have no idea if they are similar. This then means that we have no idea if the differences in outcomes are because of the treatment, or if they would be expected because of the demographies of the groups.

Until you can provide a link to a randomised double blind placebo control study that demonstrates a statically significant benefit of using HCQ+ zinc for covid treatment then the treatment remains speculative at best. Medical interventions and new treatments must always be based on gold standard studies!
Randomized double blind placebo control studies, the “Gold Standard” in intervention based studies
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3505292/

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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:54 am

Zinc Supplementation and COVID-19
Last Updated: July 17, 2020
Recommendations
There are insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of zinc for the treatment of COVID-19.
The COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) recommends against using zinc supplementation above the recommended dietary allowance for the prevention of COVID-19, except in a clinical trial (BIII).
Zinc supplementation alone or in combination with hydroxychloroquine for prevention and treatment of COVID-19 is currently being evaluated in clinical trials. The optimal dose of zinc for the treatment of COVID-19 is not established. The recommended dietary allowance for elemental zinc is 11 mg daily for men and 8 mg for nonpregnant women.5 The doses used in registered clinical trials for COVID-19 vary between studies, with a maximum dose of zinc sulfate 220 mg (50 mg of elemental zinc) twice daily.
Long-term zinc supplementation can cause copper deficiency with subsequent reversible hematologic defects (i.e., anemia, leukopenia) and potentially irreversible neurologic manifestations (i.e., myelopathy, paresthesia, ataxia, spasticity).6,7 Zinc supplementation for a duration as short as 10 months has been associated with copper deficiency.8 In addition, oral zinc can decrease the absorption of medications that bind with polyvalent cations.5 Because zinc has not been shown to have clinical benefit and may be harmful, the Panel recommends against using zinc supplementation above the recommended dietary allowance for the prevention of COVID-19, except in a clinical trial (BIII).

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/adjunctive-therapy/zinc/

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Post  alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:59 am

planetcare wrote:
alchemist wrote:Doug stop being a complete nuisance.


Here is a small example of  one of the flaws in  just one of the  studies( COVID-19 Outpatients – Early Risk-Stratified Treatment with Zinc Plus Low Dose Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin: A Retrospective Case Series Study) you sight.
The main problem with this work is that the demographics of the control group are not reported, so we have no idea if they are similar. This then means that we have no idea if the differences in outcomes are because of the treatment, or if they would be expected because of the demographies of the groups.

Until you can provide a link to a randomised double blind placebo control study that demonstrates a statically  significant  benefit  of using HCQ+ zinc  for covid treatment then the treatment remains speculative at best. Medical interventions and new treatments must always be based on gold standard studies!
Randomized double blind placebo control studies, the “Gold Standard” in intervention based studies
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3505292/

This is an example of the problem plaguing our responses to this pandemic.
To the scientific elite, science is their religion and dogmatic beliefs often blind them of morality and ethics.

The calling for double blind placebo-controlled studies during a pandemic is ruthless and unethical, because to perform this correctly means withholding potentially lifesaving drugs from some who might have survived had they been of the alternate group.

The complete rejection of all observational studies and classing them of no consequence equates to the heartless condemning to death of many who could have benefited from protocol initiation.
From fake studies retracted by leading journals, to studies using toxic dosages to call into question safety, to ignorance of the mounting positive results from countries using the drug.
It really is starting to appear that some with vested interests want to bury this drug so they can reap intellectual property fortunes, or more correctly blood billions.
John Snow discovered the source of cholera in London by observational study, had they waited for a gold standard test, hundreds possibly thousands more would have perished.

Also most people are not so stupid that they would take more than the dosage stipulated on a bottle, as this person seems to presume.
Why is he trying to discredit me, and deprive others of knowledge, did he not put aside his political biases, or is he an ideological scientific elitist who thinks only they are worthy of knowledge.
I'm reminded of Tyndale's words on completion of his bible translation from Latin to English "he would make a boy who driveth the plough know more of Scripture than the priest,"

" Abstract
Zinc is an essential trace element that is crucial for growth, development, and the maintenance of immune function. Its influence reaches all organs and cell types, representing an integral component of approximately 10% of the human proteome, and encompassing hundreds of key enzymes and transcription factors. Zinc deficiency is strikingly common, affecting up to a quarter of the population in developing countries, but also affecting distinct populations in the developed world as a result of lifestyle, age, and disease-mediated factors. Consequently, zinc status is a critical factor that can influence antiviral immunity, particularly as zinc-deficient populations are often most at risk of acquiring viral infections such as HIV or hepatitis C virus. This review summarizes current basic science and clinical evidence examining zinc as a direct antiviral, as well as a stimulant of antiviral immunity. An abundance of evidence has accumulated over the past 50 y to demonstrate the antiviral activity of zinc against a variety of viruses, and via numerous mechanisms. The therapeutic use of zinc for viral infections such as herpes simplex virus and the common cold has stemmed from these findings; however, there remains much to be learned regarding the antiviral mechanisms and clinical benefit of zinc supplementation as a preventative and therapeutic treatment for viral infections.
"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31305906/

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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:24 pm

alchemist wrote:
planetcare wrote:
alchemist wrote:Doug stop being a complete nuisance.


Here is a small example of  one of the flaws in  just one of the  studies( COVID-19 Outpatients – Early Risk-Stratified Treatment with Zinc Plus Low Dose Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin: A Retrospective Case Series Study) you sight.
The main problem with this work is that the demographics of the control group are not reported, so we have no idea if they are similar. This then means that we have no idea if the differences in outcomes are because of the treatment, or if they would be expected because of the demographies of the groups.

Until you can provide a link to a randomised double blind placebo control study that demonstrates a statically  significant  benefit  of using HCQ+ zinc  for covid treatment then the treatment remains speculative at best. Medical interventions and new treatments must always be based on gold standard studies!
Randomized double blind placebo control studies, the “Gold Standard” in intervention based studies
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3505292/

This is an example of the problem plaguing our responses to this pandemic.
To the scientific elite, science is their religion and dogmatic beliefs often blind them of morality and ethics.

The calling for double blind placebo-controlled studies during a pandemic is ruthless and unethical, because to perform this correctly means withholding potentially lifesaving drugs from some who might have survived had they been of the alternate group.

The complete rejection of all observational studies and classing them of no consequence equates to the heartless condemning to death of many who could have benefited from protocol initiation.
From fake studies retracted by leading journals, to studies using toxic dosages to call into question safety, to ignorance of the mounting positive results from countries using the drug.
It really is starting to appear that some with vested interests want to bury this drug so they can reap intellectual property fortunes, or more correctly blood billions.    
John Snow discovered the source of cholera in London by observational study, had they waited for a gold standard test, hundreds possibly thousands more would have perished.

Also most people are not so stupid that they would take more than the dosage stipulated on a bottle, as this person seems to presume.
Why is he trying to discredit me, and deprive others of knowledge, did he not put aside his political biases, or is he an ideological scientific elitist who thinks only they are worthy of knowledge.
I'm reminded of Tyndale's words on completion of his bible translation from Latin to English "he would make a boy who driveth the plough know more of Scripture than the priest,"

" Abstract
Zinc is an essential trace element that is crucial for growth, development, and the maintenance of immune function. Its influence reaches all organs and cell types, representing an integral component of approximately 10% of the human proteome, and encompassing hundreds of key enzymes and transcription factors. Zinc deficiency is strikingly common, affecting up to a quarter of the population in developing countries, but also affecting distinct populations in the developed world as a result of lifestyle, age, and disease-mediated factors. Consequently, zinc status is a critical factor that can influence antiviral immunity, particularly as zinc-deficient populations are often most at risk of acquiring viral infections such as HIV or hepatitis C virus. This review summarizes current basic science and clinical evidence examining zinc as a direct antiviral, as well as a stimulant of antiviral immunity. An abundance of evidence has accumulated over the past 50 y to demonstrate the antiviral activity of zinc against a variety of viruses, and via numerous mechanisms. The therapeutic use of zinc for viral infections such as herpes simplex virus and the common cold has stemmed from these findings; however, there remains much to be learned regarding the antiviral mechanisms and clinical benefit of zinc supplementation as a preventative and therapeutic treatment for viral infections.
"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31305906/


No, there is solid evidence that HC / zinc works–it’s called overwhelming anecdotal evidence… the same sort of evidence for our claim that water is wet!

Clues to hydroxychloroquine effectiveness in cross-country comparisons. UPDATED: 6/10/2020.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2020/06/clues-to-hydroxychloroquine.html
However, correlation is not causation. A problem is that there are several confounding factors. For example, in the Asian countries they also have much lower levels of obesity which may be a contributing factor to their much lower death rates. Also if you want lower covid death rates then simply stop reporting most covid deaths or stop covid testing of most deceased people which is undoubtedly happening in some countries!
Their are proper phase 3 trials for HCQ+Zn  underway now but the results will not be available until Dec.
Here is the latest updates on clinical trials
Assessment of Evidence for COVID-19-Related Treatments: Updated 7/30/2020
No evidence from controlled trials that zinc is effective in the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 5, 6

Appropriate dosage regimens not established in either the prophylaxis or treatment of COVID-19; various supplementation regimens being evaluated in clinical trials 2, 5, 6
Despite some anecdotal claims in the media that zinc is effective in treating COVID-19,6 unclear whether zinc supple-mentation is beneficial in the prophylaxis and/or treatment of COVID-19; further study is needed 1, 3, 6
NIH COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel states that there are insufficient clinical data to recommend either for or against use of zinc in the treatment of COVID-19 9
NIH COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel recommends against using zinc supple-mentation above the RDA for the preven-tion of COVID-19, except in a clinical trial 9
Adverse effects may include nausea (possibly dose dependent), vomiting, and changes in taste 1, 6, 7, 8
Intranasal administration should be avoided because of reports of prolonged or permanent loss of the sense of smell; intranasal zinc formulations are no longer commercially available in the US 6, 8
Potential for interactions with iron and copper, certain antibiotics (e.g., quinolones, tetracyclines), and other medica-tions
https://www.ashp.org/-/media/assets/pharmacy-practice/resource-centers/Coronavirus/docs/ASHP-COVID-19-Evidence-Table.ashx?la=en&hash=B414CC64FD64E1AE8CA47AD753BA744EDF4FFB8C

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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:47 pm

Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients
In univariate analysis, the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was not associated with a decrease in length of hospital stay, duration of mechanical ventilation, maximum oxygen flow rate, average oxygen flow rate, average fraction of inspired oxygen, or maximum fraction of inspired oxygen during hospitalization (Table 2). In bivariate logistic regression analysis, the addition of zinc sulfate was associated with decreased mortality or transition to hospice (OR 0.511, 95% CI 0.359-0.726), need for ICU (OR 0.545, 95% CI 0.362-0.821) and need for invasive ventilation (OR 0.562, 95% CI 0.354-0.891) (Table 3). However, after excluding all non-critically ill patients admitted to the intensive care unit, zinc sulfate no longer was found to be associated with a decrease in mortality (Table 3). Thus, this association was driven by patients who did not receive ICU care

After looking for any other effects, the authors conclude that “After adjusting for the timing of zinc sulfate treatment, the associations between zinc and the need for ICU and invasive ventilation were no longer significant but we did still observe a trend.” They regard this as the first evidence that zinc might be beneficial in this treatment, but your own mileage may vary.
So once again, the evidence for benefit is weak and the evidence for adverse events is much stronger. Over and over we see similar results!!!

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Post  alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:16 pm

I'm very curious about the response once this is all over, just how many falsified studies will be retracted from the New England Journal, Lancet etc., It is obvious in the scramble to bury HCQ and protect the billions invested by Big Pharma much has been written about nothing.

Over the past few weeks I've noticed that searches in the popular search engines is being heavily groomed. Google obviously, but also Bing, Start page which used to be open, but also surprisingly Duck Duck go is returning manicured results, so the tentacles of the Ministry of Truth have extended even there.
I've resorted to Zippy.com and so far it appears to give more balanced results.

I really didn't expect an attempt to discombobulate my message on here, seems the Borg have infiltrated everything, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm demembered.
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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:34 pm

alchemist wrote:- much has been written about nothing.
     

That summarizes the situation perfectly with almost every "study" on HC or HC + Zn that claim that such treatments  will reduce mortality/morbidity for covid patients!
The only way at present to reduce covid mortality/morbidity is to reduce the infection rate!
Any medical intervention  or treatments for covid patients must be based on the very best medical evidence from randomised double blind placebo trials. Good science does not work on anecdotal evidence  or poorly conducted clinical trials!

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Post  alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:00 pm

Sorry I made a mistake, it's Yippy.com
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Post  Kon61gold on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:04 pm

No member on here gets "de-membered"  for stating their point of view here Alchemist, as long as it is stated or falls within the rules governing this forum.  Bottom line fellas, we can debate the reasons for & or against till we're blue in the face, but as fortunate or unfortunate as it may sound, other high ranking officials (both from the medical profession & government), are in charge of what is or is not approved for administration to the general public. The main problem/issue here is that the whole world is working on a safe as possible cure for the combating of COVID-19, for the few so called cures they'v come up with so far, are half cocked in terms of dangerous side effects & we can only hope they come up with something more safe for human consumption, more sooner than latter.

Kon. T25
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Post  alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:39 pm

Kon61gold wrote:No member on here gets "de-membered"  for stating their point of view here Alchemist, as long as it is stated or falls within the rules governing this forum.  Bottom line fellas, we can debate the reasons for & or against till we're blue in the face, but as fortunate or unfortunate as it may sound, other high ranking officials (both from the medical profession & government), are in charge of what is or is not approved for administration to the general public. The main problem/issue here is that the whole world is working on a safe as possible cure for the combating of COVID-19, for the few so called cures they'v come up with so far, are half cocked in terms of dangerous side effects & we can only hope they come up with something more safe for human consumption, more sooner than latter.

Kon. T25

Thanks Kon, my faith is restored.
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Post  alchemist on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:57 pm

Epidemiologists often need to rely on observational studies, because to do a proper placebo-controlled one, when life and death are at stake, is unethical and I think that a certain person in the US will eventually face a Judge for this very reason.

A recent study looked at what happened in Switzerland when they stopped using HCQ after the fake study in the Lancet showed toxic effects. After the fake study was outed and retracted, Switzerland began administering the drug again.
This graph shows the spike in deaths once HCQ was stopped and the fall upon recommencing it. The incubation period is obvious.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. Swiss    

The neighboring country of In France also saw a rise in deaths as HCQ was stopped in Switzerland which seems to indicate it may also lower transmission.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. France

To ignore mounting observational evidence is pseudo-scientific and outright quackery.

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/stacey-lennox/2020/07/15/media-should-do-a-mea-culpa-as-french-analysis-offers-a-stunning-observation-about-hydroxychloroquine-use-n643181
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Post  Jims Gold on Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:50 pm

I've taken an interest in this Hydroxychloroquine since it was first mentioned (months ago) in relation to Covid 19 and the reason is that I was offered it as a treatment for my Arthritis problems by my doctor here in Maryborough. I hate taking pills and only take them as a last resort so declined and decided to tough it out. When it was touted as a treatment for Covid I was amazed to see medical people, doctors, and "experts" saying this is a dangerous drug and will kill you etc, when its been around for donkeys years (around 60 or 70). Its obviously safe to use for Arthritis /Rheumatic conditions and Malaria so how come its suddenly dangerous.

If I were to contract Covid I would certainly be trying anything that may help and wouldn't hesitate to ask for this medicine.

I also did a google search for peer review on Hydroxy and here's an interesting link

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study




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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:16 pm

alchemist wrote:Epidemiologists often need to rely on observational studies, because to do a proper placebo-controlled one, when life and death are at stake, is unethical and I think that a certain person in the US will eventually face a Judge for this very reason.

A recent study looked at what happened in Switzerland when they stopped using HCQ after the fake study in the Lancet showed toxic effects. After the fake study was outed and retracted, Switzerland began administering the drug again.
This graph shows the spike in deaths once HCQ was stopped and the fall upon recommencing it. The incubation period is obvious.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. Swiss    

The neighboring country of In France also saw a rise in deaths as HCQ was stopped in Switzerland which seems to indicate it may also lower transmission.

Off topic: Means of potentially lowering Covid-19 complications and death. France

To ignore mounting observational evidence is pseudo-scientific and outright quackery.

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/stacey-lennox/2020/07/15/media-should-do-a-mea-culpa-as-french-analysis-offers-a-stunning-observation-about-hydroxychloroquine-use-n643181

Many other factors could account for the results!

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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:26 pm

Jims Gold wrote:I've taken an interest in this Hydroxychloroquine since it was first mentioned (months ago) in relation to Covid 19 and the reason is that I was offered it as a treatment for my Arthritis problems by my doctor here in Maryborough. I hate taking pills and only take them as a last resort so declined and decided to tough it out. When it was touted as a treatment for Covid I was amazed to see medical people, doctors, and "experts" saying this is a dangerous drug and will kill you etc, when its been around for donkeys years (around 60 or 70). Its obviously safe to use for Arthritis /Rheumatic  conditions and Malaria so how come its suddenly dangerous.

If I were to contract Covid I would certainly be trying anything that may help and wouldn't hesitate to ask for this medicine.

I also did a google search for peer review on Hydroxy and here's an interesting link

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study






Dr. Fauci calls Michigan hospital’s hydroxychloroquine study ‘flawed’
“ Asked about the trial, Fauci said, “You can peer-review something that’s a bad study.”
He went on to say that none of the randomized, placebo-controlled trials have shown any efficacy of hydroxychloroquine for use in treating coronavirus patients.
“Having said that, I will state, when I do see a randomized, placebo-controlled trial that looks at any aspect of hydroxychloroquine, either early study, middle study or late, if that randomized, placebo-controlled trial shows efficacy, I would be the first one to admit it and promote it.”
“I don’t have any horse in the game one way or the other. I just look at the data.”
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/07/dr-fauci-calls-michigan-hospitals-hydroxychloroquine-study-flawed.html

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Post  adrian ss on Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:30 pm

Bloomin heck you blokes, now I am getting a headache. It's all too much for my tiny brain.

Hey here's an idea!! Idea Idea Idea
A while back I had some nuke medicine that was the equiv of having 72,000 standard chest x rays in 72 hours. I felt great after that, I reckon that radiation knocked out every bug in my body. Maybe dose up everyone with radioactive something or other and fry the covid 19 son of a gun. affraid bounce cheers Laughing Suspect alien pale
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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:42 pm

Here are the flaws in the Michigan study
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712%2820%2930530-0/fulltext#%20
Conclusions
In this observational study involving patients with Covid-19 who had been admitted to the hospital, hydroxychloroquine administration was not associated with either a greatly lowered or an increased risk of the composite end point of intubation or death. Randomized, controlled trials of hydroxychloroquine in patients with Covid-19 are needed.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410
Another study came to the same conclusion!

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Post  Kon61gold on Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:34 pm

Look fellas, desperate times can bring forth desperate measures, some of which might not be so logical or right, nor safe for implementation over the long term. This is why (as an example) America is diving in head first, on any form of early cure or preventative measure/cure, made by any one, from any other country, in order to fight off COVID-19 & i can't say I blame them, for every other nation given the opportunity, will be doing exactly the same.
For once, I have to agree with Adrian here, for its not only doing his grey matter of ones cerebellum in, but doing it to the whole of forum members. Keep in mind the majority of us members on here are a gathering of detectorists/prospectors, not scientists/doctors, to constantly be debating such. So for the sake of ones sanity, lets just pull the reigns back a little, take a break from it all, for there are much more important things confronting us, as well as dealing with at the moment.

Kon T25


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Post  moredeep on Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:04 pm

Interesting thread fellas,it's civil and interesting .
I suppose any cure will be a break through but unfortunately big monies are involved for the race to find a cure.
Proper trial studies are essential.
I once remember a trial study to help stroke patients in the early 1990's, unfortunately there was a sudden increase in sudden death with this drug,the trial was ceased very very quickly.
The same with thalidomide ,miracle cure for morning sickness but devastating side effects for the unborn baby,was it rushed out to get the upper hand on the market$$$???.
I agree we need concise studies before we celebrate.



cheers   moredeep
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Post  Mechanic on Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:34 pm

alchemist wrote:I'm very curious about the response once this is all over, just how many falsified studies will be retracted from the New England Journal, Lancet etc., It is obvious in the scramble to bury HCQ and protect the billions invested by Big Pharma much has been written about nothing.

Over the past few weeks I've noticed that searches in the popular search engines is being heavily groomed. Google obviously, but also Bing, Start page which used to be open, but also surprisingly Duck Duck go is returning manicured results, so the tentacles of the Ministry of Truth have extended even there.
I've resorted to Zippy.com and so far it appears to give more balanced results.

I really didn't expect an attempt to discombobulate my message on here, seems the Borg have infiltrated everything, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm demembered.
     
If anyone thinks that their favorite search engine doesn't apply bias to search results in order to steer people in a certain direction, try this and I mean actually try it.
Search for "white couple" and look at images and carefully look at the results and how they don't represent the thing you searched for.
Do the same for "black couple" and notice the difference in results. Happy smiling attractive black couples.
Search for "white American inventor" and see the results. Were there any white American inventors?
Now tell me that when you search for HCQ covid19 treatments that the search results are not heavily biased to those who provide funding directly or indirectly.

Doug, when you look for HCQ studies to quote, at least find those that are administering zinc as well and doing it early on in the infection or even before being exposed to the virus.
You of all people know what can happen when big companies want to squash little things that will hurt their bottom line.

I for one would trust a drug that has been tested for over 50 years vs double blind studies on a vaccine that they whipped up and tested yesterday.

Cheers Mick


Last edited by Mechanic on Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Post  planetcare on Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:04 pm

Mechanic wrote:
Doug, when you look for HCQ studies to quote, at least find those that are administering zinc as well and doing it early on in the infection or even before being exposed to the virus.
You of all people know what can happen when big companies want to squash little things that will hurt their bottom line.

I for one would trust a drug that has been tested for over 50 years vs double blind studies on a vaccine that they whipped up and tested yesterday.

Cheers Mick

There are NO randomized double blind studies that with HCQ+zinc that show that the combination protects you from the infection or  reduces the mortality/morbidity from covid infection  even early in the infection.
I am happy to be proved wrong.The potential vaccines are going through as they always do  very rigorous clinical trials from phase1 to phase 3 triasl to make sure they are safe, induce an antibody response and that the antibody response  persists and protects the person from covid infection. HCQ is also not a totally benign drug if it is used outside the recommended dose range and can have adverse interactions with other drugs  and also with some patients with preexisting conditions.The same goes for adding additional Zn which can lead to a Cu deficiency and also  can have adverse interactions with other drugs.

Hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19: Evidence can’t seem to kill it
Despite the accumulating negative evidence showing that hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work against COVID-19, activists continue to promote it as a way out of the pandemic. This week, the AAPS and a Yale epidemiologist joined the fray with embarrassingly bad arguments.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/hydroxychloroquine-to-treat-covid-19-evidence-cant-seem-to-kill-it/

Read my earlier post again and its conclusions:Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients

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Post  Mechanic on Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:41 pm

planetcare wrote:
Mechanic wrote:
Doug, when you look for HCQ studies to quote, at least find those that are administering zinc as well and doing it early on in the infection or even before being exposed to the virus.
You of all people know what can happen when big companies want to squash little things that will hurt their bottom line.

I for one would trust a drug that has been tested for over 50 years vs double blind studies on a vaccine that they whipped up and tested yesterday.

Cheers Mick

There are NO randomized double blind studies that with HCQ+zinc that show that the combination protects you from the infection or  reduces the mortality/morbidity from covid infection  even early in the infection.
I am happy to be proved wrong.The potential vaccines are going through as they always do  very rigorous clinical trials from phase1 to phase 3 triasl to make sure they are safe, induce an antibody response and that the antibody response  persists and protects the person from covid infection. HCQ is also not a totally benign drug if it is used outside the recommended dose range and can have adverse interactions with other drugs  and also with some patients with preexisting conditions.The same goes for adding additional Zn which can lead to a Cu deficiency and also  can have adverse interactions with other drugs.

Hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19: Evidence can’t seem to kill it
Despite the accumulating negative evidence showing that hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work against COVID-19, activists continue to promote it as a way out of the pandemic. This week, the AAPS and a Yale epidemiologist joined the fray with embarrassingly bad arguments.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/hydroxychloroquine-to-treat-covid-19-evidence-cant-seem-to-kill-it/

Read my earlier post again and its conclusions:Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients
Once again, the link you provided in your last post failed to show anything about the combination of zinc. If you follow any of the links within, there is no mention of zinc being used, except in some peoples comments.

The copper deficiency comes from prolonged use of zinc, about 10 months, but for what it is needed for now is not 10 months of use, probably only several weeks use.
Those who are vulnerable to the effects of HCQ, could be protected by the rest of the young fit and healthy people who can safely take the drug combination taking it, thus taking away a vast majority of hosts for the virus to infect.

Don't forget that not all that long ago we were being told that roundup is completely harmless and anyone who spoke otherwise was laughed out of town. There was big $ involved and it took a long time and a lot of smear campaigns before there was enough evidence to prove otherwise.

Let's hope that something works soon. I live in covid central and have just over 2 weeks left here at my day job, then I am off to greener pastures where covid no longer surrounds me. And yes, I will be properly isolating for at least 2 weeks upon my arrival to Dunolly.

Cheers Mick

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Post  planetcare on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:21 am

Mechanic wrote:
planetcare wrote:
Mechanic wrote:
Doug, when you look for HCQ studies to quote, at least find those that are administering zinc as well and doing it early on in the infection or even before being exposed to the virus.
You of all people know what can happen when big companies want to squash little things that will hurt their bottom line.

I for one would trust a drug that has been tested for over 50 years vs double blind studies on a vaccine that they whipped up and tested yesterday.

Cheers Mick

There are NO randomized double blind studies that with HCQ+zinc that show that the combination protects you from the infection or  reduces the mortality/morbidity from covid infection  even early in the infection.
I am happy to be proved wrong.The potential vaccines are going through as they always do  very rigorous clinical trials from phase1 to phase 3 triasl to make sure they are safe, induce an antibody response and that the antibody response  persists and protects the person from covid infection. HCQ is also not a totally benign drug if it is used outside the recommended dose range and can have adverse interactions with other drugs  and also with some patients with preexisting conditions.The same goes for adding additional Zn which can lead to a Cu deficiency and also  can have adverse interactions with other drugs.

Hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19: Evidence can’t seem to kill it
Despite the accumulating negative evidence showing that hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work against COVID-19, activists continue to promote it as a way out of the pandemic. This week, the AAPS and a Yale epidemiologist joined the fray with embarrassingly bad arguments.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/hydroxychloroquine-to-treat-covid-19-evidence-cant-seem-to-kill-it/

Read my earlier post again and its conclusions:Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients
Once again, the link you provided in your last post failed to show anything about the combination of zinc. If you follow any of the links within, there is no mention of zinc being used, except in some peoples comments.

The copper deficiency comes from prolonged use of zinc, about 10 months, but for what it is needed for now is not 10 months of use, probably only several weeks use.
Those who are vulnerable to the effects of HCQ, could be protected by the rest of the young fit and healthy people who can safely take the drug combination taking it, thus taking away a vast majority of hosts for the virus to infect.

Don't forget that not all that long ago we were being told that roundup is completely harmless and anyone who spoke otherwise was laughed out of town. There was big $ involved and it took a long time and a lot of smear campaigns before there was enough evidence to prove otherwise.

Let's hope that something works soon. I live in covid central and have just over 2 weeks left here at my day job, then I am off to greener pastures where covid no longer surrounds me. And yes, I will be properly isolating for at least 2 weeks upon my arrival to Dunolly.

Cheers Mick
Here is a paper for you.
COVID-19 Outpatients – Early Risk-Stratified Treatment with Zinc Plus Low Dose Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin: A Retrospective Case Series Study
Martin Scholz * , Roland Derwand , Vladimir Zelenko
Version 1 : Received: 30 June 2020 / Approved: 3 July 2020 / Online: 3 July 2020 (08:52:22 CEST)
This has not been peer reviewed and has many problems
eg The main problem with this work is that the demographics of the control group are not reported, so we have no idea if they are similar. This then means that we have no idea if the differences in outcomes are because of the treatment, or if they would be expected because of the demographies of the groups
Their are many other problems with the publication.It is so poor it should be withdrawn
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1/download
Please read my earlier post:Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients
This quote I posted is directly from the paper!
"In univariate analysis, the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was not associated with a decrease in length of hospital stay, duration of mechanical ventilation, maximum oxygen flow rate, average oxygen flow rate, average fraction of inspired oxygen, or maximum fraction of inspired oxygen during hospitalization (Table 2). In bivariate logistic regression analysis, the addition of zinc sulfate was associated with decreased mortality or transition to hospice (OR 0.511, 95% CI 0.359-0.726), need for ICU (OR 0.545, 95% CI 0.362-0.821) and need for invasive ventilation (OR 0.562, 95% CI 0.354-0.891) (Table 3). However, after excluding all non-critically ill patients admitted to the intensive care unit, zinc sulfate no longer was found to be associated with a decrease in mortality (Table 3). Thus, this association was driven by patients who did not receive ICU care"
Their are clinical trials being done to see if Zn can be used as a therapy for covid.
https://about.unimelb.edu.au/newsroom/news/2020/april/world-first-trial-to-test-benefit-of-intravenous-zinc-in-covid-19-fight

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Post  dundiggin on Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:20 am

After reading all the contributions on this topic ( and don't understand it all) I do appreciate that to stay reasonably safe from the virus without having higher education is follow a path of self isolation and live in Queensland. lol! Q39 dundiggin

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Post  adrian ss on Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:55 am

Trouble is there is nowhere to live in QLD that does not get clobbered by cyclones every year. Ruins the plantations and washes houses away and sends flood-waters down from the mountains into low lying towns. Rolling Eyes
Maybe that is why only 5 million people live there. Laughing Hell even the corona v doesn't want to go there........Just joking. It's my put crap on QLD day today. lol!
Tomorrow it will be Canberra..... Hang on! Canberra is already covered in crap, if I add more you won't be able to see where it went. Very Happy
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Post  Mechanic on Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:06 am

planetcare wrote:
Here is a paper for you.
COVID-19 Outpatients – Early Risk-Stratified Treatment with Zinc Plus Low Dose Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin: A Retrospective Case Series Study
Martin Scholz * , Roland Derwand , Vladimir Zelenko
Version 1 : Received: 30 June 2020 / Approved: 3 July 2020 / Online: 3 July 2020 (08:52:22 CEST)
This has not been peer reviewed and has many problems
eg The main problem with this work is that the demographics of the control group are not reported, so we have no idea if they are similar. This then means that we have no idea if the differences in outcomes are because of the treatment, or if they would be expected because of the demographies of the groups
Their are many other problems with the publication.It is so poor it should be withdrawn
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1/download
Please read my earlier post:Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients
This quote I posted is directly from the paper!
"In univariate analysis, the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was not associated with a decrease in length of hospital stay, duration of mechanical ventilation, maximum oxygen flow rate, average oxygen flow rate, average fraction of inspired oxygen, or maximum fraction of inspired oxygen during hospitalization (Table 2). In bivariate logistic regression analysis, the addition of zinc sulfate was associated with decreased mortality or transition to hospice (OR 0.511, 95% CI 0.359-0.726), need for ICU (OR 0.545, 95% CI 0.362-0.821) and need for invasive ventilation (OR 0.562, 95% CI 0.354-0.891) (Table 3). However, after excluding all non-critically ill patients admitted to the intensive care unit, zinc sulfate no longer was found to be associated with a decrease in mortality (Table 3). Thus, this association was driven by patients who did not receive ICU care"
Their are clinical trials being done to see if Zn can be used as a therapy for covid.
https://about.unimelb.edu.au/newsroom/news/2020/april/world-first-trial-to-test-benefit-of-intravenous-zinc-in-covid-19-fight
So in this paper you quoted above, https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1/download
If you read from the section "HOSPITALIZATIONS AND ALL-CAUSE DEATH" on page 11 through to the end of page 12 and the people who were treated early with the full combination fared really well compared to those who were not. And the one patient who died had a bad history and only took one dose before he was admitted to hospital.

And the "Safety" section I would happily put up with any of those side effects. At least they are known side effects from a drug that has been used for 65 years and it is used very commonly, so it is not like only a handful of people have taken HCQ over the past 65 years. People have taken it, had kids and those kids have had kids and probably another generation now too.

If the HCL, Zinc and whatever antibiotic are being administered once a person has symptoms that bad that they are in intensive care, the virus has already infected their cells and it is too late to administer it, that is why studies show that it doesn't do anything to patients in that setting. If administered early, it stops many people from getting to the stage where they need intensive care.

Cheers Mick

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Post  planetcare on Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:03 am

Mechanic wrote:driven by patients who did not receive ICU care"
And the "Safety" section I would happily put up with any of those side effects. At least they are known side effects from a drug that has been used for 65 years and it is used very commonly, so it is not like only a handful of people have taken HCQ over the past 65 years. People have taken it, had kids and those kids have had kids and probably another generation now too.

If the HCL, Zinc and whatever antibiotic are being administered once a person has symptoms that bad that they are in intensive care, the virus has already infected their cells and it is too late to administer it, that is why studies show that it doesn't do anything to patients in that setting. If administered early, it stops many people from getting to the stage where they need intensive care.

Cheers Mick
"If administered early, it stops many people from getting to the stage where they need intensive care."
Lets see  what happens when this preprint is subjected to peer review when i have no doubt that the obvious flaws  in the paper  will be exposed.
The problem is that you have 2 papers which have totally different results. One paper shows no benefit for the protocol and the other claims almost 100% benefit so who is right? Their is a large clinical trial  currently underway in the USA to properly evaluate this protocol but the results  won't be known  until Dec.But the key point is that this protocol needs to done in a hospital setting. That's OK if you have a relatively small number of patients but what if you have many hundreds or even thousands of infected people, the hospital system would be overwhelmed and many people would still die. Prevention is better than cure. The other problem i see is that some people will  see these results as being a cure for covid and  then not worry about protecting themselves or others.


Last edited by planetcare on Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)

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Post  Mechanic on Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:32 am

The 2 papers refer to the treatment being applied at completely different stages, one as early as possible and the other to people already advanced so far they are in intensive care.

So if the results of testing of completely common well known drugs/suppliments won't be available until at least December, when will we see a vaccine? A vaccine will need more testing than well known medications. Don't forget there is no vaccine for the original SARS nor MERS, or the common cold.
How many people will die in the mean time?
How far will the virus spread by then?
How many people have died from effects of HCQ in the 65 years it has been in use? Make sure you set your search engine to find results before 2020.

Cheers Mick

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