Detecting in WA

You are a criminal when you walk into a shop and take something without paying.
You are a criminal when you jump a farmer's boundary and take his stock.
You are a criminal when you are in another's house stealing his jewellry, tv, etc.
YOU ARE A CRIMINAL WHEN YOU ARE DETECTING ON ANOTHER'S GRANTED MINERAL TITLE WITHOUT PERMISSION IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA.

The "I am just here in my caravan with my wife and friends. I am just on holidays from interstate - I did'nt know. I am just camping. My mate told me to come here - he's been coming for years. The dog ate my homework excuses do not take away the fact that YOU ARE A CRIMINAL - and you will be given the respect by tenement holders that you would give a heroin addict standing in your bedroom stealing your assets.

You have a choice to detect on vacant crown land - the only reason you are on another's granted mineral title is GREED....You choose to be a lowlife thieving b**tard- CRIMINAL.
By the time that we have driven down to you and photographed your car and you, we have been watching and photographing you for a while so you are a CRIMINAL in our eyes.

Wide open spaces does not mean that nobody has title to the land and its contents. As tenement holders, we pay land rates as you would on your home, we pay lease rates as you would in your rented home. This is our place of business. Walking on to our title and stealing our gold is as offensive to us as it would be for you to have us walk into your home and help ourselves to your assets with the excuse "nobody's home"

Every gram of gold taken off our tenements is the same as you putting your hand in our wallet and taking the money out of it. At what point would your "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore" moment be?.
$1,000, $2,000, $5,000, $10,000+.

When a vehicle starts driving towards you when you are on another's mineral title, think about this .. Are you the straw that breaks the camel's back? - Are you the "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore" moment for the tenement holder?
Is it worth the risk when there is plenty of vacant crown land?

If you are travelling on a gold tour to WA, it would be advised to check that your operator has written permission to bring groups onto the tenements that are on the itinerary. Groups have been brought onto our tenements without permission in the past. Get a list of the tenements and do your own research thru the Mines Dept and contact the owner yourself so you are not put in the position of criminal behaviour on your holiday.

I once again wish to thank all the people that have ethics and asked our permission to detect on our tenements and abided by the conditions requested by us for this privilige. For those that choose not to ask permission - there is no excuse- you are a criminal.

Gday


While I agree with you on most points that you bring up and I can understand your frustration at having people on your leases without your specific permission you still have to realise that people still have the right to access crown lands even under leases for the purpose of camping and travelling through, providing that they are not detecting on it then they are breaking no laws, and are exercising their rights as holders of a miners right.

One point is taking photographs will not be of any value to you in court, as in most cases they will not be accepted, it is very hard to have the court accept a photograph as evidence and this is because they can be doctored in many ways, and even if they were to accept it as evidence then they would only do so if you can prove without doubt that it is legitimate, in the way that investigators and police do.

The law can also take a dim view on people watching and taking photo or video recordings of others without the correct licencing and adherence to laws pertaining to harassment, so you need to be very sure of your facts before you try to present this sort of thing to a court or whoever you plan to present it to, or you may well find yourself on the recieving end of harassment charges.

Another thing is that there are lease holders that although they are hot to confront people on there own leases they are doing the same thing themselves on their neighboring leases,( thats the pot calling the kettle black) I have seen many examples of this, I have also been confronted by people who are not even the holder of the lease and telling me to go, and when shown a 20a permit will pretend that they dont know what it is, there are some of these people in just about every area I have been to.

I guess that in some cases people are also getting fed up with trying to do the right thing and still getting bailed up, a more friendly and subtle approach and perhaps some documenary evidence to stick under the nose of the interloper would be the way to go, most people will listen to reason and even more so if they know they are not supposed to be there, if you want people to take you seriously and you are expecting them to produce evidence to you then you need to do the same thing when you confront them, if you confront someone in an agressive manner then you will most likely be greeted back the same way.



cheers

stayyerAU

as someone once said "im a mirror to your attitude "

You have missed our main argument. If you are detecting on a granted mining title without permission you are carrying out an illegal operation.

You are correct in saying that you can have access to crown land for recreational purposes. Our point as states was not recreational intent - detecting intent. Our photographing an individual and their property is only done after observing and witnessing criminal behaviour - harrassment would be a hard point to push in court.
The gold sqad in WA takes gold theft very seriously and will pursue an individual on a tenement holder's behalf.

You mention non-lease holders asking you to move on - why were you detecting on someone elses granted mineral title in the first place? This is what I am asking this forum's members to think about. Why do you believe this practice is acceptable?

The level of theft that we are experiencing on our tenements has forced us to engage "watchers" for our mineral project areas. These people are given authority to move detectors off of our tenements by us. Thefts from our areas have been substantial enough to warrant this. Our joint venture partners (mining companies) also have the authority to move detectors along - so do not presume the person asking you to move on does not have authority.
Do you really believe that it is still ok to detect on anothers granted mineral title if you think the person asking you to move on is not the tenement holder? Regardless of who asks you to move on, your actions are still criminal and demonstates real intent if you are aware of another's ownership.

But the question begging to be answered, what makes you believe that detecting on land that does not belong to you is ok? You don't walk into someone's place of business and steal without thinking that there will be a criminal charge if you are caught. Granted mineral titles are someone's place of business and the assets within its boundaries belong to the owner of the title.

Why is it so hard to ask permission?

Hi Fadix,
whilst I sympathise with you having to deal with unruly and ignorant detectorists on your legitimate mining title, there are a huge
number of tenements being held out there which are never going to be mined. They are held by people who do nothing except fiddle
their tenement expenditure figures for years on end hoping that a mining company will take an interest. I can think of dozens of examples of this right now. There never has been, or never will be any useful mining equipment ever placed on these tenements. That being the case, you cannot help but understand why some people will detect there. They are stock market miners, nothing more. The guys that peg ground, actively work it and live on site have my respect. Those that peg huge tracts of good ground and do nothing with it are holding both WA back and those who seek to extract actual gold from it. Huge amounts of money flow into WA each year from mining and detectorists both.
Stock market miners achieve nothing and provide nothing.

Stayyer has not missed your point. He hasn't said he has been detecting on granted mineral tenements without permission. He mentions a Sec20a permit, meaning that he has legal access to a granted exploration tenement. Also, if you know the holder, its possible he has permission anyway. Jumping to conclusions!

This all being said, there are huge tracts of pending ground available in WA and further ground available via a Sec20a permit. Do your homework prior to visiting or detecting in WA and everyone is happy. The online Tengraph system is bloody marvellous for this. I encourage everyone visiting WA to use it. One more point, make sure you have your permit on your person and get a good GPS with mapping overlay and learn how to use it! There's nothing like shoving evidence under the nose of a grumpy 'watcher'. Do the right thing and those guys like Fadix will have no reason to be angry. There's plenty of room for everyone! Graham

Gday


I agree that if you are detecting on a granted mining lease then you should have to have permission to be there, no arguement with that, but sometimes both leasholders and station owners need to be aware that prospectors have right too, and sometimes people do make mistakes and go into the wrong areas, particularly in the respect of people new to the hobby so a less standover approach would suffice.

My point with the photography is that in the eyes of the court unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that the photo you are presenting as evidence in an attempt to prosecute someone is 100% authentic then it is more than likely that they will not accept it, in the area of harassment I think that you will find that if you have not approached the perpertrator and advised them of their being on your property, then the court will ask you to explain how you knew that they didnt have permission to be there?, whether permission was granted or not the onus would be on you as the leaseholder to cover this base first, if you are skulking around in the bushes taking photos and then thundering into the camp making demands and being agressive then the court could view this activity as being a bit heavy handed and open the gate for the defence to argue that you were in fact harassing their client.

To clear up one point I wasnt detecting on a granted mineral title it was an EL otherwise I would not have had a 20a permit, my point there was only that the person requesting me to leave was some no body that just assumed he had the right and authority to do it.

I understand that we all have a responsibility to do the right thing and I do mean "ALL" and I can see the frustration on both sides of the fence, from the perspective of the detector operator I guess that it can be said that we are slowly experiencing the closing up of areas that have been used for years and that it feels as though at times that the people who have leases over huge tracts of land are tying it up for its paper worth and for the most part do nothing more than have drillers sample here and there and do nothing else, they are primarily after the ore loads and are not interested in the odd bit of alluvial here and there so the little taken by detector operators does not really amount to that much anyway, if people are working with machinery in a more concentrated fashion then I could see how they could lose a lot of gold.

From the perspective of the lease holder who has to pay for the rights to hold the lease I can understand the frustration of having others plunder it, and not only that as the lease holder you are responsible for any rehabilitation and damage that these people can cause, I am not saying I think that it is alright for people to do this and dont condone it, but it is a thing that is very hard to control and more needs to be done to educate both the detector operators and also the lease holders, perhaps even the introduction of a more simplified way of people finding out where they can and cant go and being able to get permission and permits online, even the provision of open areas within set boundaries where there is ample ground that someone can spend some time detecting in and not tread on any toes, there seems to be more effort put into trying to lynch people than trying to come up with a more common sense approach to handling the situation and rectifying issues that have been around for years and years.


cheers

stayyerAU

Whilst I agree with the OP, there's more than a handful of "prominent" prospectors (who are members of this forum) who are guilty of this. They know who they are. One of them came close to getting his caravan burned down for his troubles (though that was on a QLD property, not one in WA). I think the attitude is that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. That's no excuse of course.

StayyerAU also has a point that the Prospectors have rights in WA. Many of which are overlooked by leaseholders.

But the BAD actions of a few are what have caused most of the problems - some of which are entirely unforgivable.

fadix wrote:
The level of theft that we are experiencing on our tenements has forced us to engage "watchers" for our mineral project areas. These people are given authority to move detectors off of our tenements by us. Thefts from our areas have been substantial enough to warrant this. Our joint venture partners (mining companies) also have the authority to move detectors along - so do not presume the person asking you to move on does not have authority.
Do you really believe that it is still ok to detect on anothers granted mineral title if you think the person asking you to move on is not the tenement holder? Regardless of who asks you to move on, your actions are still criminal and demonstates real intent if you are aware of another's ownership.

wow, gold tenement bouncers

if someone is doing something illegally then the offended party should have documentary evidence to support that claim. if i believe i'm doing something legally and a 'bouncer' or 'joint venture partner' or anyone with the attitude you have displayed who didn't have such evidence on them, i'd probably be a little upset. there should never be a circumstance where presumption is required from either side.
there are ways and means of communicating with people, playing secret squirrels in the bush with a camera isn't high up there on the list of actions a legitimate operator would need to do.
Hope to meet you out there one day 'fadix', share a beer, have a chat, just leave the attitude at home.

I believe there is also a LEGAL requirement that the main access road entering the lease/tenement pass by the marked Datum Peg which must be CLEARLY visible, CLEARLY marked and must include the co-ordinates and boundaries of the claim on the Peg. Anyone with a valuable claim would go out of their way to make this as plain and visible (with signs etc) as possible to avoid unwanted transgression.

These signs should be enough to deter all but idiots. It would also prevent the need for some claim holders to post threats on the internet or possess a need to post them in the Classified section of the Gold, Gem & Treasure magazine. I would like to mention that I still sympathize with the OP. It would rile me up if I were in his position. Sounds like something happened recently.

Hi All
Well this subject has let the Cat amongst the pigeons hasnt it ? When Nan and I go on any land we obtain permission be it from lease holder or by Section 20A, it dosnt take much effort and it saves a lot of hassles with angry lease holders.

On the other hand, we have come across the odd lease holder that has gone off the handle and accused us of being on ground that we shouldnt be on and he has'nt been the holder of that lease. This year for instance we were at a location out of Leonora on private leases that we had permission to be on and some yahoo (which wont be named) came in telling us we had to leave and he was going to call the Gold police and the Mines dept if we didnt, and this (Yahoo) did'nt have any say or authority on those leases. This is what make the Detector operators ANGRY. We do the right thing and still get accused.

I agree with the lease holder, GET permission and do the right thing and everyone will be happier.
Also one last thing a message to the lease holders : Leave your contact details with the mines Dept, it would make it a lot more simpler for the Newby's to ask permission than to just turn up and get screamed at.

Cheer's Mono and Nan

Thanks for your post Fadix. Totally agree with the concept you are explaining. You are going about it the wrong way though. As a new member to this forum over the last month or so, the information is great, friendly and helpful. I am looking at not going for the gold so much, but just the excitement of getting out and about in the fresh air and relaxing. Camp under the stars, clean up my area, fill in my holes and take out all my rubbish. Even to the extent of making sure the fire pit is out fully and levelled over, all neat and tidy.

When you come on, I feel that WW2 is about to start. I always ask permission and work hard to find hte locations and obtain the correct names etc. Remember you also need to notify the tenament points/boundaries with clear mapping so that we do not stray.

Your last 4 post have all been hostile and blatantly mean. You may have had some idiots that have done the wrong thing and let you down.

f we all lightened up the world would be a enjoyable place and enjoy the outdoors in our great big country. Acan

Acan, you may consider my posts as hostile and mean - I consider the "invasion" by illegals as hostile and mean. This post was as mono and nan mentioned - "to put the cat among the pigeons". We are bombarded with in excess of 50 illegal detectors each month that we catch. God knows how many we don't. This post is to get you to think about why you may not be welcomed with a cup of tea and scones. How friendly would you feel if you believe that your income has been affected to the tune of $100k a year?

I am heartened by the amount of people replying that believe that being on a granted tenement without permission is not acceptable behaviour. As in my first post, I thank all those people that are making the effort to gain permission. I ask that in your travels that you inform as many newbys of this good practice.

We photograph people only after we have witnessed illegal activity,we are not lurking behind bushes - the culprits would have heard our vehicles driving around. We are very obvious in our movements. The photographs are to counter the "we are only camping" claim. A picture of them with detector in hand saves us having to go thru "yes you were" "no I wasn't " claims.
Our aim is to approach people with a moderate tone, but the point I was trying to get the forum to see is that maybe you are the 5th caravan that we have asked to leave in less than a 24hr period, so you may be the straw that breaks the camel's back and your eviction conversation may not be as pleasant as the first offender.

The people that we give permission to detect on our tenements are in regular contact with us and we know their vehicles so we do not need to go near them.

Graham summed up what I was trying to get the forum to consider. There is enough land without having to go on our tenements and steal our gold. All we ask is you do not leave your moral compass at home when you are visiting our goldfields.

Buy yourself a gps, learn how to use the tendex system to do a search at the mines dept. All our contact details are listed as the tenement holder. We are contacted by US citizens for permission so it can't be too difficult. It is your responsibility to learn the rules of the game before you play in our sandpit detecting, not the tenement holder. Our applications have all the co-ordinates and boundaries that are required for you to determine if you are on vacant crown land or a granted mineral title. Laziness is not an excuse either.

16 Days late fadix...5 posts.... got anything else to add to the forum there is sub forums. Or do you just come to "VENT"

Has anyone heard the saying piss or get off the pot,

If you lease a claim, the best way to make sure no one "steals" the gold is to get it before they do, is that so hard, people should WORK the ground and move on, instead of sitting back at home stressing about who's doing what where, How long does it take to work a claim 10 years i dont think so,

It should be like the old days if your claim is left idle your out of there pronto makes very good sense, lease holder should be made to work there claims 5 days a week and if it remains idle for more than 2 than you forfeit your lease,

It does seem that some people in WA have 20 idle leases each thats an outrage, what a joke,

Like i said piss or get off the pot,

Fancy calling the humble prospector greedy, how many leases do you own, how often do you work them, whys there still gold lying about how god damn big are the leases if you cant find all the gold. Greedy have a think about that one.

I am not really going to enter this discussion, but I will say that if you should not be somewhere and are aware of it then the brandings (such as criminal) given should be and are acceptable in my opinion as being a thief.

I have been to WA a couple of times, for pleasure and work. I have not detected there as yet, but when I do I will be doing my best to know where I am at all times and detecting the places which I have permission to be. Not much different from any other state either really is it...If your not meant to be there then youre not meant to be there!!


PICS FOR EVIDENCE
Be very careful of taking photo's and video, especially for evidence...It will back fire on you.
I have just been reading about this topic and it is very clear cut!!

If you do not have a private Investigators licence then you are considered a stalker.
So don't be branded being a criminal yourself!!
But yes you do need to be able to protect your assets.

Cheers

All extremely good points on this debate. My frustration is with the mining leases that have been abandoned and are still showing up as currently active with the wa mines dept. It means that I either have to take the punt of being a criminal and driving in to take a look or miss it completely and move on to the areas selected with a section 20 a. Let me clarify that I do not break the law and disagree strongly with the people who do move in without a section 20 a!!!
I hope some of the tenement holders also give royalties to the aboriginal communities but perhaps this is via the gov dept anyway (excuse my ignorance on this one)
Perhaps another catagory of mining and exploration lease needs to be created - perhaps called recreational exploration lease.(taken out by people who are not really doing anything but waiting for a takeover bid)
I do understand the frustration of the currently legitimate lease holders but do they also understand the frustration of the prospector who scrapes the surface like a chicken and is penned in to all the bulldozed areas in the hope of finding a bit of gold!

Hi Fadix
Whilst I agree it must be frustrating if operators are detecting on your lease without your permission, but remember this is your problem and not our's.
You need to sort this out for yourself and all you can do is ask them to leave, or report this to the authorities and get legal satisfaction.
There has been a few people on here before jumping up and down and making threats in regard to this issue and for what point.
It doesn't matter what you say on here it won't fix your problem, get out there and work your lease and save your words for the people who are guilty and stealing your gold.
Mark

Hey all,
i am confused by some things that were said . I am from Vic and not familiar with WA rules.
So i looked up WA Mining ACT 1978 (and '84 re-print).

I gave it a resonably attentive look-see, and i can not find any mention of "Mineral Title" or "Mineral Tenement" in the Act.

There are a Mining Tenement, Mining Lease, and Exploration and Prospecting Licenses.

Additionaly, the WA Department of mines and petrolium mentiones Mineral Tenements, which include both Exploration and Mining
http://www.dmp.wa.gov.au/3968.aspx

From what i can see, it is not illegal to prospect on Mineral Exploration Tenements, provided you get the right forms and papers.

Fadix, could you please calrify the terminology in your original post? Because at the moment it looks like you are making up legal-sounding terms in order to keep people away. I am not saying you are, but it might look that way to some people. Newbs, such as myself .

Best regards

RT

Rtwanweb,
it was used a broad cover all term for Mining and Prospecting Leases. (the term is used in contracts to save having to specify each tenement's status)
Shortened to : ML's or PL's.

Thank you for taking the time to learn before you come to our goldfields.

A good deal of my past work involved photography and associated laws. I can't imagine any reason why a person wouldn't be able to photograph trespassers (with or without permission). They are TRESPASSERS. It is then up to the courts to determine if the activity captured was useful. I carry two cameras (including a concealed video camera) when I'm out ...just to record any jerks that come my way. I look forward to posting them on YouTube later for your entertainment assuming I meet up with any. I can always do it anonymously if faces are there. The biggest complaint by police is that they have no hard evidence to use to prosecute and convict and that it's usually "his word against theirs" when it comes to people reporting illegal activities and illegal firearm related offenses etc. Again, if the boundaries are clear, there's no reason why anyone would trespass "accidentally". One of the biggest problems is that the Datum Pegs are either hard to see or find or because some people claim they didn't know they "weren't supposed to be there" because there were no signs. The wide open spaces of Western Australia and the endless land out there means people will deliberately stop along the way to check the area with their metal detectors and hope to come off as being "harmless tourists" if caught on someone's land or property.

I have a business associate who wandered out and found a prospector using a mechanical backhoe within just a few feet of his Datum Peg over in WA. He confronted the guy who said he didn't see the Peg but that nobody would mind. My associate said that they "guy who pegged it would be pretty annoyed to see his claim being jumped" and the digger just laughed and said that it looked like a "real good spot" and said that he'd get around to asking the owner of the claim for permission just as soon as he'd had a look to see if it was worth the dig. He then asked if my associate had any idea who might have pegged the spot, to which he replied "Yeah, ME!"

I believe the man was thrown off the land with a detailed description of what would happen if he returned. There is very little doubt that people out in the back of nowhere can (and do) end up down an old shaft due to frayed tempers and confrontations. I do seem to remember telling this board that people have serious altercations over perceived "boundary issues" and that I regularly hear about these things after some sort of exchange has taken place. Some of which have involved firearms. Whilst this may not be the best way to get a point across, the number of people prepared to take action is increasing and it's almost always due to selfishness and lack of "fair play" by a few. It's not a select few either since the problems in WA and also towards the Palmer region in QLD has eroded many of the places once easily accessed by Gold Fossickers and Prospectors. As usual, it's the bad eggs that tarnish it for everyone else.

Ive been dobbed in to the Dept in Victoria for supposedly dredging , i wasn't i was sluicing, but this person had seen fit to stalk our group and take photos of our activities but in doing so took photos of the young children in our group and received a ticking off .We did get a visit from the ranger to tell us what had happened

Wow.... that was a hell of an eye opener discussion.
I am totally new to the business of prospecting and have just purchased my first machine. Armed with enthusiasm and a machine I want to spend time in the bush scrounging around. I have heard stories of unauthorised people trying to move you on etc etc and figured I would deal with that when the problem arose. I also considered that I would have to ask for access if a place was fenced, had no idea that there might not be any indication that a place was owned or under some sort of a title.
It is getting near impossible to do anything without getting a law degree first.
The discussion was educational and will make me more aware..... I hope all my learning will be on the computer and not at the hands of the thugs that guard the supposed claims.

Just a theory....I wouldn't mind betting a fair percentage of the tresspassing and "stealing" on ML's is done by locals familiar with the area and familiar with the comings and goings of the lease holder.

MOST interstaters do the right thing, research, know thier boundaries and get thier paperwork and permissions in order. They want thier annual or once in a lifetime and expensive holiday to pass without a flaw and generally wont risk doing the wrong thing.
I do believe the visiting detectorists get the raw end of the fish and cop more blame than warrented.

What doesn't help is the high and mighty "this is OUR gold" attitude of some, looking down thier noses at anyone with an eastern state rego plate. The resources belong to ALL Australians, you just happen to live closer than we do.

Just to clarify before anyone gets thier undies in a wad, no I'm not refering to all West Aussies, just the few who open that hole in thier neck and dribble venom dirrected at us illegal Eastern state mob going over to rob, pillage, trespass and plunder THIER gold.

p.s. you lot are welcome over this side anytime

Going by the many posts on another forum, you are spot on tuna!

Some of these blokes will even blame the mums and dads for the midnight pushing on leases.

AS long as they are blaming t'othersiders.

Inhere wrote:Going by the many posts on another forum, you are spot on tuna!

I don't even take the time to read that forum anymore!

What forums that, theres a few about and some seem picky bout who joins, like invitation only, bloody, i dont get an invite pack of sods.

I get the impression theres a party going on somewhere and im not invited, theres a forum that you cant join without an isp email wtf's with that, theres another forum thats invites only toffs, then theres dudleys, i joined azo the other day, i think patches j has a new forum, i think Q sandy's got a forum,

Relax gollstar, talking about finders!
You don't need an invite.

So much for us in the centre,dont you know we all drive semis with low loaders and backhoes on when we go for holidays Oh, sorry my mate has the dozer on the back of his,mark

gollstar wrote: i dont get an invite pack of sods.

I get the impression theres a party going on somewhere and im not invited,

Sorry mate, that tickled my bits. I can tell you now if there was an exclusive forum, I wouldn't want to be on it!
I'd rather be out in the bush swinging and digging than sitting here reading forums and I would be if I didn't have such a drive just to get to the closest fields.

Having said that, to be relevant to the initial post....There were goldfields in the Grampians which is a short drive but....NATIONAL PARK. I read in The Eureka Echo Vol.29 No. 1 summer 2010 that a Horsham prospector has been warned off three times without success from fence jumping. Parks Victoria and the local police have joined forces to monitor illegal access to both crown and private lands.
So it does go on everywhere!

and NO I am not that prospector.

Cheers

MadTuna's right about that... There was a case I was talking about just yesterday with a detectorist who said uninvited Prospectors in WA were accused of stealing a series of bore-pumps (which apparently are mind-numbingly expensive) and it turned out to be a neighbor from the next door farm that was stealing the pumps, NOT the Prospectors. This is apparently not uncommon. And the farm owner getting his pumps stolen was absolutely hopping mad at the Prospectors he came across, grabbing a couple of them "by the throat" (or so it was explained to me) before letting them go again... prior to discovering that it was his neighbor stealing his pumps. I believe they would have been hard to sell so it seemed odd that Prospectors would pinch them. Still, the Prospectors were to blame until the real culprits were caught.