GPZ 7000 coil

[quote="Narrawa"]

The lead is 99.9% invisible to a working coil.

Agreed narrawa until it moves in relation to the coil like if its loose.
Then it detects it thats why we all keep our leads in order so its not flopping around giving false signals, well I do anyway

davsgold wrote:

Agreed about the upper metal shaft being seen by large coils, but its no more of a problem then the c/box. It moves in relation to the coil which would have slightly desensitized...slightly. If these were major problems, they would have been addressed when Adam was boy. You'll find no more gold with a full Otto shaft then you will with the std shaft....same detector same coil...there's just not enough in it. The only benefit really is weight.

I'll stick with the Otto shaft, the aluminium upper shaft is the first thing that gets changed on a new (now old) detector when first purchased.  The aluminium shaft is quite a way closer to the coil than the control box so it's would be the first thing to be seen.

Even though it move in relation to the coil the desensitizing effect is still taking place.  This is much more of a factor to be taken into account with large mono coils, remember the older model GP and GPX detectors only came out with DD coils and so this was not so much of a concern.

If it had no real effect then why not have even the lower shaft aluminium, as that still moves in relation to the coil as well.

And I will never know if I would have found the same amount of gold with the standard upper shafts as opposed to the Otto shafts as it was pointed out to me the benefit of the otto shaft.

cheers dave

I can notice the difference easily as my wife still has the ally and I run the fiberglass when using the 20 or 25 on her detector every time the coil is bumped up or down it detects the shaft where as mine dose not.

GoldHound wrote:

Narrawa wrote:

The lead is 99.9% invisible to a working coil.

Agreed narrawa until it moves in relation to the coil like if its loose.
Then it detects it thats why we all keep our leads in order so its not flopping around giving false signals, well I do anyway

Yep would have to agree, Maniac and i had our leads to loose, lesson number 1 from gold hound, stopped falsing issues we had straight up.

yep got the upper fibraglass with the 4000 and noticed the firmer locking nut and o-ring was better at preventing the coil from minor movements.
with the 4500, the hole in the upper ally shaft for the locking silver button was slightly too big and i couldnt stop the minor movement of bottom shaft and coil, so immediately back to the old otto shaft. blow me down if the 5000 had the same problem so i immediately resort to the otto shaft again. (should have told minelab about the hole being too big i suppose)

i have also been taught that any metal down close to the coil, even if it moves with the coil and you personally cant notice any differences, does in fact take some energy out of the machines capabilities, because it has to read and dismiss that soil mineralisation equivalent.
as you see, i use ordinary talk because I KNOW NUFFINK but i would be interested in hearing more about that last bit cherrs ...kev

And I will never know if I would have found the same amount of gold with the standard upper shafts as opposed to the Otto shafts as it was pointed out to me the benefit of the otto shaft.

cheers dave

Its really very simple, toss a ally shaft on the bottom, and test it over a small bit of gold. Im betting you'll not be able to notice any difference.
By design of the coil, it punches upward and downward far more than it punches outward.

Did JP do this exercise by taping a 3gram nugget to his coil, and showing it still working in one of his vids.? While the nugget was in sync with the coil, there was what difference being noted.?
From memory he did the shaft test as well, but i cant remember the full out come...other than i think the otto is much lighter.??
I use the same full otto i had on my 4k.....not argument about how much lighter they are.

No argument of metal being in the coils field not desensitizing the detector to some degree. But a coil cable is shielded. Vibrations are still present whether the lead is in the shaft, or wrapped round it.
The two most venerable areas are where the lead enters the coil, and control box.


If it works for you.....let no one tell you different.

PS..kevlorraine2, i dont use big words.

G'day All,

I have been running the coil lead straight up the lower shaft and then winding it around the upper shaft to the control box. Making sure that the lead is firm all the way to the box and I haven't been getting as many false signals since doing this. I am still using the alli upper shaft, but have been told to use the otto type, especially if using the bigger monos.

Cheers.

Mike.

Mike54 wrote:G'day All,

I have been running the coil lead straight up the lower shaft and then winding it around the upper shaft to the control box. Making sure that the lead is firm all the way to the box and I haven't been getting as many false signals since doing this.  I am still using the alli upper shaft, but have been told to use the otto type, especially if using the bigger monos.  

Cheers.

Mike.  

Well Mike54, you get a hundred points for winding the coil lead the correct way on a pi detector……….but…….will have to deduct 30 points for that alloy shaft, does make a difference with larger coils 18" to 25".

Narrawa wrote:

And I will never know if I would have found the same amount of gold with the standard upper shafts as opposed to the Otto shafts as it was pointed out to me the benefit of the otto shaft.

cheers dave

Its really very simple, toss a ally shaft on the bottom, and test it over a small bit of gold. Im betting you'll not be able to notice any difference.
By design of the coil, it punches upward and downward far more than it punches outward.

Did JP do this exercise by taping a 3gram nugget to his coil, and showing it still working in one of his vids.? While the nugget was in sync with the coil, there was what difference being noted.?
From memory he did the shaft test as well, but i cant remember the full out come...other than i think the otto is much lighter.??
I use the same full otto i had on my 4k.....not argument about how much lighter they are.

No argument of metal being in the coils field not desensitizing the detector to some degree. But a coil cable is shielded. Vibrations are still present whether the lead is in the shaft, or wrapped round it.
The two most venerable areas are where the lead enters the coil, and control box.


If it works for you.....let no one tell you different.

PS..kevlorraine2, i dont use big words.

I'm not talking about desensitization I'm talking about the blo#dy false signals you get every time ya bump the coil if the lead is loose!
This same thing would be extremely annoying on a detector with an internal cord that you could not tighten to stop falsing.
Have you used the atx narrawa?
This is very annoying on the atx this is what causes the touch sensitivity on the atx, I could hear it moving inside the shaft, but could do nothing to stop it.
This is what I'm talking about in regards to the shaft as well, not desensitization which is a non issue.
I never once mentioned desensitization, only flashing which is a problem.
And since the new gpz has an internal coil wire it if not designed properly could have the same issue, but by the looks of things minelab have properly designed the shaft configuration so this dose not happen.

Inhere wrote:

Mike54 wrote:G'day All,

I have been running the coil lead straight up the lower shaft and then winding it around the upper shaft to the control box. Making sure that the lead is firm all the way to the box and I haven't been getting as many false signals since doing this.  I am still using the alli upper shaft, but have been told to use the otto type, especially if using the bigger monos.  

Cheers.

Mike.  

Well Mike54, you get a hundred points for winding the coil lead the correct way on a pi detector……….but…….will have to deduct 30 points for that alloy shaft, does make a difference with larger coils 18" to 25".

Just use a longer lower shaft that coiltek make, problem solved.

Mike54 wrote:G'day All,

I have been running the coil lead straight up the lower shaft and then winding it around the upper shaft to the control box. Making sure that the lead is firm all the way to the box and I haven't been getting as many false signals since doing this.  I am still using the alli upper shaft, but have been told to use the otto type, especially if using the bigger monos.  

Cheers.

Mike.  

I tape the lead at the coil end and then do 3 wraps to the knuckle, then tape it again then coil the lead and tape it after the handle before the control box so as to stop plug movement.
A tight lead is important if you don't want lead flashing (false signals).

davsgold wrote:

Agreed about the upper metal shaft being seen by large coils, but its no more of a problem then the c/box. It moves in relation to the coil which would have slightly desensitized...slightly. If these were major problems, they would have been addressed when Adam was boy. You'll find no more gold with a full Otto shaft then you will with the std shaft....same detector same coil...there's just not enough in it. The only benefit really is weight.

I'll stick with the Otto shaft, the aluminium upper shaft is the first thing that gets changed on a new (now old) detector when first purchased.  The aluminium shaft is quite a way closer to the coil than the control box so it's would be the first thing to be seen.

Even though it move in relation to the coil the desensitizing effect is still taking place.  This is much more of a factor to be taken into account with large mono coils, remember the older model GP and GPX detectors only came out with DD coils and so this was not so much of a concern.

If it had no real effect then why not have even the lower shaft aluminium, as that still moves in relation to the coil as well.

And I will never know if I would have found the same amount of gold with the standard upper shafts as opposed to the Otto shafts as it was pointed out to me the benefit of the otto shaft.

cheers dave

Ha, I have a lower shaft out in the garage that came with the 2000 that is all alloy, except for the end.

Inhere wrote:

Mike54 wrote:G'day All,

I have been running the coil lead straight up the lower shaft and then winding it around the upper shaft to the control box. Making sure that the lead is firm all the way to the box and I haven't been getting as many false signals since doing this.  I am still using the alli upper shaft, but have been told to use the otto type, especially if using the bigger monos.  

Cheers.

Mike.  

Well Mike54, you get a hundred points for winding the coil lead the correct way on a pi detector……….but…….will have to deduct 30 points for that alloy shaft, does make a difference with larger coils 18" to 25".

G'day Inhere,

Yes I was told by John Gladdis years ago when the GPs came out to change to the Otto type F/G upper shafts. The way he explained it was the lower shafts develop flex in them which causes the coil to pick up the ally upper shaft.      

Cheers.

Mike.

GoldHound wrote:

Mike54 wrote:G'day All,

I have been running the coil lead straight up the lower shaft and then winding it around the upper shaft to the control box. Making sure that the lead is firm all the way to the box and I haven't been getting as many false signals since doing this.  I am still using the alli upper shaft, but have been told to use the otto type, especially if using the bigger monos.  

Cheers.

Mike.  

I tape the lead at the coil end and then do 3 wraps to the knuckle, then tape it again then coil the lead and tape it after the handle before the control box so as to stop plug movement.
A tight lead is important if you don't want lead flashing (false signals).

G'day GoldHound,

Yep I tape the lead from the coil to the bottom of shaft, but allow enough lead so the coil can pivot with no stain on the lead into the coil. Then run it straight and tape it just bellow the nut and from there I just wind it until the handle until there is just enough lead to reach the plug, I still use the Velcro strap behind the handle which seems to hold it tight enough. Like I said I haven't had any problems with it falseing.

Cheers.

Mike.

There isn't much more i can add to what iv posted.....im still using the first of the NF white model coils, i just dont get the falsing problems, and again....im a pig when it comes to wrapping my leads round the shaft.
Im also using an old 3000 issue 11" mono, and that old bugger should be falsing, but its not.?

Iv never heard of lead flashing.?...but if your going to the trouble your going to, to stop falsing, to me it sounds like a problem elsewhere.?

Narrawa wrote:
There isn't much more i can add to what iv posted.....im still using the first of the NF white model coils, i just dont get the falsing problems, and again....im a pig when it comes to wrapping my leads round the shaft.
Im also using an old 3000 issue 11" mono, and that old bugger should be falsing, but its not.?

Iv never heard of lead flashing.?...but if your going to the trouble your going to, to stop falsing, to me it sounds like a problem elsewhere.?

Might be from a change in coax lead, bad bach , I've notice some coil leads play up more than others, when they get knocked, dose not matter if it's a minelab, coiltek, nuggetfinder coil. Could be bad coax wire, all are manufacture over here, Not too shore about the detech coils, but they are overseas made so they may not have this problem.

Narrawa wrote:
There isn't much more i can add to what iv posted.....im still using the first of the NF white model coils, i just dont get the falsing problems, and again....im a pig when it comes to wrapping my leads round the shaft.
Im also using an old 3000 issue 11" mono, and that old bugger should be falsing, but its not.?

Iv never heard of lead flashing.?...but if your going to the trouble your going to, to stop falsing, to me it sounds like a problem elsewhere.?

Nah there isn't a problem elsewhere.  Every minelab PI I've ever used does it just like Goldhound explained.  Except the SDC of course, but it has the cable inside

Btw Happy Birthday

Goldgeo, can you pull up some old posts on it.?

Edit....thx for the b/day wishes....and the reminder.

Off on another tack, I hope Minelab don't price the extra coils as per the SDC2300 at around $700/800.
I think that may well be the case if the lower shaft is integral with the coil

Robert

Narrawa wrote:You saw that too.?
Thought it might have been a stopper.....but why would you need a stopper i says to myself.

Happy B'day you old fart

I think it is the gps antenna...

Cheers Mick

Since SD to GPX range
From the plug/ferrite rod down cable to the coil windings is one antenna sending/receiving
which has some limitations, losses etc.

Now just at a guess, on the new machines such as SDC & GPZ(more so) they might of fixed some the problems,
that we have experienced in pass designs, (hopefully) and have made more the coil/not the lead, an improved antenna,
might explain the chip theory and changed coil design, but I'm only guessing.
Hopefully the carbon fiber shaft(or whatever material they have used) shield's/hides cable from the coil/s.
If we have a good look at some of leaked info, they have put a lot of time/effort into their new design.
And have listen to some of our experienced operators from the field,
Hopefully their claims are what they say they are, and makes for better detecting.
I rest my guesstimates.

Re false alarming, the new 7000 might have 2 conductive strips up the center of shaft and they slide over each other when shaft is extended. This would then eliminate and movement. This was my thought when i looked at the pictures, as there is no visable cable. Then when you take off coil and replace with another coil it just touches on each side where the coil grip goes over the end of shaft. To me this would make a lot of sense. TG

The coil is connected to the control box by an Inter-flaritation beam, or by mirrors, I'm not sure, it's one or the other. Still deciphering the wikileaks.  

Excess metal within or fixed to the coil will respond as if moving relative to the coil when the coil passes over some rocks and ground.

This is best demonstrated with a ground balancing PI detector such as the SD, GP and GPX Minelabs. You will a quiet place and a small piece of ferrite from an old internal radio aerial, or better still, a piece of soft ferrite broken from an old TV line output transformer or a ferrite slug from an adjustable core.

Place the coil flat on the ground away from metal, then place a coin on the ground at a distance from the edge of the coil where it would normally be detected if moving. The coin will then give a response if you pass the ferrite over the coin even though the coil and coin are both stationary.

Or place an 8" to 14" coil coil in the air or on a log or wooden plank and ground balance the ferrite, it might still make some noise but note the response. Then tape a small (detectable) nugget, say 0.5-1 gram, to the top the coil. The nugget will then respond as if moving when you wave the ferrite over the nugget.

The ferrite has similar properties to a lot of so-called hot rocks.

A coil containing excess metal will have you digging ghost signals that don't exist when using a properly made coil. Some early third party coils were unusually noisy on some ground but most people didn't know this and blamed the ground or the detector.

robby_h wrote:Excess metal within or fixed to the coil will respond as if moving relative to the coil when the coil passes over some rocks and ground.

This is best demonstrated with a ground balancing PI detector such as the SD, GP and GPX Minelabs. You will a quiet place and a small piece of ferrite from an old internal radio aerial, or better still, a piece of soft ferrite broken from an old TV line output transformer or a ferrite slug from an adjustable core.

Place the coil flat on the ground away from metal, then place a coin on the ground at a distance from the edge of the coil where it would normally be detected if moving. The coin will then give a response if you pass the ferrite over the coin even though the coil and coin are both stationary.

Or place an 8" to 14" coil coil in the air or on a log or wooden plank and ground balance the ferrite, it might still make some noise but note the response. Then tape a small (detectable) nugget, say 0.5-1 gram, to the top the coil. The nugget will then respond as if moving when you wave the ferrite over the nugget.

The ferrite has similar properties to a lot of so-called hot rocks.

A coil containing excess metal will have you digging ghost signals that don't exist when using a properly made coil. Some early third party coils were unusually noisy on some ground but most people didn't know this and blamed the ground or the detector.

About time Robby H, been waiting for you to post in this thread.

Mechanic wrote:

Narrawa wrote:You saw that too.?
Thought it might have been a stopper.....but why would you need a stopper i says to myself.

Happy B'day you old fart

I think it is the gps antenna...

Cheers Mick

That did cross my mind, but thoughts changed when thinking how if you wave a GPS near a working coil ...satellite interupticus comes into play from the field of the coil.??
In my opinion, the best location for a GPS antenna would be in the top of the c/panel. ?

"About time Robby H, been waiting for you to post in this thread".

Yeah Inny, I was biting my tongue. Minelab filed a patent addressing this issue well before the SD2000 patent so it should be well known by now but it isn't.

If you knew I was going to post then we both must be psychic psychiatric!!!

Narrawa wrote:
There isn't much more i can add to what iv posted.....im still using the first of the NF white model coils, i just dont get the falsing problems, and again....im a pig when it comes to wrapping my leads round the shaft.
Im also using an old 3000 issue 11" mono, and that old bugger should be falsing, but its not.?

Iv never heard of lead flashing.?...but if your going to the trouble your going to, to stop falsing, to me it sounds like a problem elsewhere.?

Narrawa
Do this little experiment on ya 4500:
Sit detector so it is stationary and stable on ground, turn the mofo on and move and jiggle the lead at the coil end.
All those warbly noses and wings and wongs that's "lead flashing".
Its worse when you lift and lower the lead change its proximity to the coil.
This is the same noise that you get when you bump the front or back edge of the coil and change the tilt thus chaging the proximity of the lead to the coil and the detector momenteraly detetects the lead as it was moving in relation to the coil.
It sounds exactly like ground noise or a very faint target.
Or the noise generated by a loose lead that sounds more like emi as the lead only moves sharply to the signal is sharper.

Or do this test:
Lean the detector coil up in the air against a tree or wooden table so there is nothing detectable within coil range.
Now turn on detector and let it stabilize, now change the tilt\angle of the coil both quickly and slowly.
That noise that you can hear is the detector living up the lead because its moving in relation to the coil.

Now there no way to stop this completely but we can minimize this effect by trying to keep the lead stationary to the coil by keeping the leads in check and if the lead is internal by proper design.
This is a major failing on the atx as every time you even slightly knock the coil which is all the blo#dy time    it detects the lead.

That is why I can see that they would have to have the bottom section well secured on the gpz.

You may still disagree narrawa you are after all entitled to your own opinion, if you do I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

Ive never heard of lead flash or noticed the lead falsing except for some coils being bump sensative,did 5-6 hrs this morn and tried what you guys are talking about,phone was to close at the start but......

Oh PS: gain was on 15,cleaning up old spot(rolleyes) so 45 was a little unstable too.....
video below.....





https://youtu.be/Vsf1rjmPoMA

goldchaser wrote:Ive never heard of lead flash or noticed the lead falsing except for some coils being bump sensative,did 5-6 hrs this morn and tried what you guys are talking about,phone was to close at the start but......

Oh PS: gain was on 15,cleaning up old spot(rolleyes) so 45 was a little unstable too.....
video below.....





https://youtu.be/Vsf1rjmPoMA

Gday gold chaser
Watched your vid
The chattery noise is caused by you wabbling the lead side to side if you wobble the lead up and down in relation to the coil you will see this effect more profoundly.
Do this test then tell me the detector can not detect the lead.
I just did it on mine if I knew how to put up a YouTube and had the internet allowance I would show you guys.
Happens on ALL of my coils too.
Geese I hope all my coils aren't stuffed
I showed this to the boys last year when we were detecting in 1m long grass on a patch both of them had loose leads and could not detect at all, while I was mowing through no probs at all even had me stumped for a good hour why I wasn't having any trouble and they were.
Then I noticed the sloppy leads, as soon as the boys tightened em up falsing gonesky.
Then we all cleaned up we all pulled good gold that day

GoldHound wrote:

goldchaser wrote:Ive never heard of lead flash or noticed the lead falsing except for some coils being bump sensative,did 5-6 hrs this morn and tried what you guys are talking about,phone was to close at the start but......

Oh PS: gain was on 15,cleaning up old spot(rolleyes) so 45 was a little unstable too.....
video below.....





https://youtu.be/Vsf1rjmPoMA

Gday gold chaser
Watched your bid
The chattery noise is caused by you wabbling the lead side to side if you wobble the lead up and down in relation to the coil you will see this effect more profoundly.
Do this test then tell me the detector can not detect the lead.
I just did it on mine if I knew how to put up a YouTube and had the internet allowance I would show you guys.
Happens on ALL of my coils too.

Dector chattering all morn,41 here today and when them hot gusts come threw well....
I'll try what you say( not 2moz- 43)but i didnt see any serious noises in relation to the coil being twisted about
Im calling this myth busted!