Permission from Landowners

MS wrote:I have seen the fifty foot rule on old land titles in Vic, but I think it only means you can excavate down to that level for works and you need permition for that anyway but you do not have any rights to extract minerals or gold.
I agree it belongs to the crown and if you have a miners right and follow the process it can be yours.
Thats what the miners right is for and shows this clearly on the Vic Gov miners right site.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpi.vic.gov.au%2Fdpi%2Fnrenmp.nsf%2FLinkView%2F3C2E5B2206D96F73CA2574F300142B8F8B3DA072DA032386CA2573DF001C56C6%2F%24file%2FMinersRight_FAQ.pdf&ei=ssNMSuH2KZLQsQP36qisBQ&usg=AFQjCNE4zXlUHwbHz3HxGWQ23KQ4CFqYVQ

Thats how I have always know it to be and the above sight seems to show the same.
Mark

There is nothing there to say the minerals become the propety of the land owner if permission is not gained. However I must ask: If the minerals are gained while illegally entering land without permission, who lays claim to the minerals if they are gotten via illegal means? When the findere has a miners right. I dont want to test this theory but I am curious.
I dont do this for money and I dont want to spoil my fun, so its only thinking and typing out loud.
Brett.

Hi all interesting topic, like people say gold does strange things to people, would i jump the fence if i new there was some large nuggets just over the other side i couldnt answer that,i would proberly think about about talking to the owner but if they say no then what are you going to do jump the fence anyway, in that case you should just have done that in the first place,because if you jump after talking to them and they find some holes the next day, they may just be waiting for you the next night, if it was my property i would, it would be pretty embarrassing to be lit up by a spot light in the act mid swing, i think you should only try it if your as cunning as a shizahouse rat.



REGARDS elma fud

echidnadigger wrote:[quote= MS There is nothing there to say the minerals become the propety of the land owner if permission is not gained. However I must ask: If the minerals are gained while illegally entering land without permission, who lays claim to the minerals if they are gotten via illegal means? When the findere has a miners right. I dont want to test this theory but I am curious.
I dont do this for money and I dont want to spoil my fun, so its only thinking and typing out loud.
Brett.

Hi Brett , The only point I was trying to make and put the webb site linkup for and it did say Yes to, is a landholder does need a miners right to take gold or minerals even from their own property , that being said you don't own anything of value down to 50ft then in this regard.
Things have got off the track a bit from the original post, but I also would like to say I wouldn't enter any property unless seeking permission.

Mark

Ok I have dug out the title and re read it and agree that all minerals still belong to the crown and even I need a miners right to dig for them, no problem there as I always carry one. As to anyone having access to private land even with a miners right here's the number one rule from the dpi (vic) website.

"1. What is a Miner’s Right?
A Miner’s Right is a permit to prospect for minerals on unreserved Crown Land or Private Land where the permission of the landowner has been granted. "

Says it all really
Jim

Jims Gold wrote:Ok I have dug out the title and re read it and agree that all minerals still belong to the crown and even I need a miners right to dig for them, no problem there as I always carry one. As to anyone having access to private land even with a miners right here's the number one rule from the dpi (vic) website.

"1. What is a Miner’s Right?
A Miner’s Right is a permit to prospect for minerals on unreserved Crown Land or Private Land where the permission of the landowner has been granted. "

Says it all really
Jim

Thanks Jim,
Even though trespassing is a rather mild sort of crime I think its very important that as responsible prospectors/detectorists, we respect that entering someones land without their permission is very offensive to the owner. Just like back filling our dig holes shows our respect to other land users, so does respecting private property. Who knows, if we all do the right thing then more property owners may be a little more sensitive to our hobby.
Brett.

G'day Gents,

good to see that good sense (and some research into what is actually an offence) has prevailed. Regardless of the medium one uses (print, television the internet) the law in Australia remains the same. Once you encourage a third person to break the law or even suggest that a suitable way out of a threatening situation would be to toss a perceived assailant into a mine shaft or having him 'disappeared', you can probably be charged (even if not convicted) of breaking the law - probably 'incitement' to commit the offence of assault, threatening behaviour or even murder. Whilst I realize that no-one has actually suggested tossing anyone down shafts or sorting out a threat with a Colt .45 Dodge City style, I think some of the posts have come close to it. The bottom line is that all of us realize that actively encouraging trespass when there are other alternatives is morally wrong.

If any gentleman of this forum actually believes that hopping over a fence at night to detect a promising area is a good idea - then you really aren't in this game for fun or even as a hobby - you're a professional, and an unscrupulous one at that. And if you're a 'professional' why aren't you 'out there' living and grubbing a good living in the scrub unearthing all those 'nuggies' I read about, rather than posting tough-guy, hop the fence guff on this forum?


So gentlemen, and here I'm not including those members whose posts reflect both restraint and common sense, be careful of what you advocate on this or any other public media.

Forester

At the end of the day you shouldnt jump the fence it is very rude theve paid for the place and like the privacy the last thing the wont is some city slicker digging up there paddock,alsot here is probably the best ground on private land for detector operators in this day and age, i think the best approach would be talk to the owners and if there elderly ask if you can do some work for them take it slowly dont bring in the bobcat the first day,also in my last post i looked at jumping a fence from both perspectives and have never said go for nore did i say i would personally jump a fence and i wouldnt advice it to anyone else.

Even though trespassing is a rather mild sort of crime I think its very important that as responsible prospectors/detectorists, we respect that entering someones land without their permission is very offensive to the owner. Just like back filling our dig holes shows our respect to other land users, so does respecting private property. Who knows, if we all do the right thing then more property owners may be a little more sensitive to our hobby.
Brett.
I am re posting my own words in an effort to let everyone understand this is my feelings on the matter. Please don't misinterpret what I am about to say as advocating fence jumping or trespassing. In fact I'm against it.

You are not committing a criminal offence by entering someones property without permission. however Its a civil matter that can be pursued by the land owner if your intentions are more than crossing the property or approaching the owner.

The gold on the property is not the property of the owner unless they have the mineral rights to the property. Hence you are not stealing if you acquire minerals while on the property.

If you are collecting gold on the property without permission then the odds are that it would be an easy case of intentional trespass to prove in court.

If you are approached by the owner and asked to leave, you must leave immediately no questions asked. (an apology would be good at this point). If you don't leave then you are committing a criminal act and that's a whole new tin of worms. Hello Mr police man.

I will again say that I am against fence jumping but there is a reason that I felt it necessary to define the laws to some degree. That is, any one of us could be caught in a situation where we have crossed into private property without knowingly doing so. Its easy to do and I have done it. It worries me that a simple mistake could end violently if approached by a less than understanding property owner.
I hope this make sense. I am concerned about peoples safety and well being on both sides.
Brett.

Echidna Digger

Jeez I thought we'd put this thread to bed but you seem to want to keep it going restating whats already been said but in a strange way missing the most important point. In fact your post gives me impression that you appear to want to be on both sides of the fence (pardon the pun).

One statement you made stands out "Hence you are not stealing if you acquire minerals while on the property.". That by itself is clearly wrong because in fact it is stealing unless you have the owners permission to be on his property and thats the important point that you so conveniently keep omitting from your posts.

Quite frankly any newbies reading your posts must be getting confused so to them I say stick to the No1 rule and get permission .

Jim

OK if we break this down into points of law then there is some doubt as to wheather the proofs of a stealing offence are satisfied. IF and I say IF this does not count as stealing then it most definately would be covered by one of the Goods in Custody charges combined with "enter enclosed lands".

In NSW there is no trespassing charge. It is called "enter enclosed lands" and if you hop over a fence to get there then you have no defense.
As far as the gold is concerned, they were most definately "UNLAWFULLY OBTAINED", as you had to commit an offence to obtain them. You will loose at court and you will forfeit the gold to the crown.

So in this situation you are looking at one count of stealing OR two charges one Goods in Custody and one Enter Enclosed Lands. It doesn't matter. You know it's the wrong thing to do. At the end of the day you would have let yourself down. If you get away with it then you end up justifying it to your self and you get to a point where you think it's ok. Then the next temptation comes along and it's only another small step to doing that and justifying it to your self again. It's a downward spiral. Have some honour people. (this is not directed at anyone ok) Our prisons are full of people who started out with something small like this.

Dicko...

Jims gold.
Well said, if Everyone got permission from property owners & did the right thing everyone would be welcome.
Cheers Greg

Dicko,
You said,
"As far as the gold is concerned, they were most definitely "UNLAWFULLY OBTAINED", as you had to commit an offence to obtain them. You will loose at court and you will forfeit the gold to the crown."
This is the area of this topic that I have been trying to get to the bottom of. Personally I believe you are correct but up till now this area of the topic has been a little grey. I made the points above based on the information that has been posted.
I have struggled to find it possible for someone to be charged with stealing something that didn't belong to anyone in the fist place. The way you have put it makes sense. If this is in fact the law then fence jumpers really do have something to worry about.
Brett.

Hi all,
I don't want to put the 'cat amongst the pigeons' but almost every full moon night that's not wet, there are at least a dozen FJ's on paddocks in the Triangle. A few of them are very well known and find a sh*tload of gold. They do this as a matter of fact and don't give a damn. The best policy is to be honest and lawful.....do the right thing and good things will happen to you (karma). But, seeing the gold that these guys find each year (I'm talking 100oz+ easy...EACH) it makes you wonder....
Cheers, Dwt

Yeah I know what you mean Dwt.

The people who consistantly do the wrong thing always seem to have it easy while we always seem to do things the hard way just because its the right way. Karma will get em sooner or later.

Brett, I hope that clears things up a little. Another part of law that got me thinking was there is an offence called 'steal by finding.'
If I find a bag of money and keep it then get caught then I would be charged with that. Now If i found that bag and handed it in to the cops? I would have to wait 3 months and If it wasn't claimed then I would be able to keep it. Abracadabra money laundered. I don't know why the drug dealers don't do this instead of some of the other elaborate ways they go about it.

Now if I find a diamond ring while detecting at my local race track for pre-decimal coins what then? I suppose I should hand it in. If it was an old penny obviously lost years ago I'd keep it without thinking twice. Is that a double standard? What if it was a 1930 penny worth 36 thousand dollars? At least gold, gems and minerals are covered by other laws so we don't have to worry about handing them in.

Dicko..

Quote,"The people who consistently do the wrong thing always seem to have it easy while we always seem to do things the hard way just because its the right way. Karma will get em sooner or later."

Brett, I hope that clears things up a little.

It has been hard to define my status on this topic while I have played the card of the devils advocate. I have stated my feelings over and over. (again I am against fence jumping) In fact I have displayed honorable intentions toward this hobby from the day I started posting. I can understand Jims Gold's backlash to my comments and he is justified. Who wouldn't want to protect their property from trespass.
Carma may very well be a vengeful elephant.
I stick my neck out every now and again, even though I know I will upset some members and in turn I will get a fair bit of back lash. I don't do this to offend and don't want to antagonize. I simply want to get answers to questions that I have and hopefully inform others. I respect The retailers point of view but, forums are where we get down to the nuts and bolts. Not always the trueth, unfortunately. Not because we are a bunch of liars, rather we tell it how we understand it from someone else's interpretation that we trust as an authority.
Brett.

Sorry Brett I was commenting on two posts at the same time. When I said that to you I was talking about the unlawfully obtained bit. Referring to your previous post. From your posts you do come across as an honorable bloke. I think those who have a go know that too and that they are just stirring the pot.

This is the perfect place for us to explore a topic from as many different angles as possible.

cheers

Dicko..

Hi everybody

On this topic of Permission to landowners and Mining companies:


Is there somebody that's got a example of a letter asking for permission to landowners and/or mining companies to go onto their land/leases. I am not from an english speaking backround and would appreciate if somebody will be willing to share such a letter/s.

The weather is turning and we need to get our ducks in a row. I know of some people already swinging and can just hope that hey will leave something for us.

Best

Kudu