Permission from Landowners

Hi All,
Here is the situation... You are out detecting on a piece of public land in the Golden Triangle and you hit a small patch ( 3 ounces) ... you follow the patch as it runs getting thicker and tighter.... it heads off onto private property out of sight of the land owner. Your discreet inquiries of the land owner show him to be a person of ill repute who is suppose to be responsible for the theft of stock in recent times and the theft of water pumps from houses. You are concerned that if you bring it to his attention that he has a nice patch running through his property he will just tell u to get and get his mates onto it.... you cant afford to take a lease out. As u are a local you dont want to get caught doing the wrong thing.

What would you do? Approach him and do the right thing??? or ..............................


Ray

i can't help but think of Biily Joel's song called "The River of Dreams"

And in particular the chorus;

"In the middle of the night, I go walking in my sleep"

Hi All
The answer is YES, If you require permission then you should seek out that permission. In the past there have been to many people of differing hobbies that have done the wrong thing & accessed property when they did'nt have permission which has had a negative affect on those that seek to do the right thing. I rely on my longstanding reputation for doing the right thing by property owners (I will fix broken fences when i find them & inform the owner, leave gates as you find them, the basic stuff goes along way) remember you are another set of eyes & ears for the owner if you see something thats not as it should be let them know, As im a plumber by trade I offer to work for them when im there & ask if there is anything they need brought out from town.
You dont need to tell them of your find just ask if you can have a look around or offer some of what you find.
If you dont get permission be happy with your 3oz I WOULD BE (none yet).
DONT GO WITHOUT PERMISSION - you'll pay for it in the end, there is alot of people browsing here.
Good luck
Cheers
Lee

Try asking but say its somewhere else on thier property, if they say yes go to the place you told them (they will proberly want to watch you) you find nothing and casually ask if you could try somewnere else just to have a look. Hopefully they think you have no idea at what your doing and will say go for it and leave shaking their head.
If they say no (how high was that fence again?), a good set of Gen 1 night vision goggles are about $1G. But being a local someone will see your car or even yourself (In daytime and possiably at Night).So as I (or non local)would maybe jump the fence your case is differnet, could turn of narsty for U.
Regards
John
PS last resort go 50/50 with owner, its not something i would do personaly ( I have a problem with doing all the work and suppling the equipent to get half) but something worth consideration. (and wear gumboots amazing how gold just falls into them)

I think you already know the answer that he wouldn't let you on.
I would get a women who detects to ask as she would have atleast 10 times better chance of getting access and you could go 50/50 with her.
Mark

I like Freshwater's brilliant idea - cunning as a fox.
Jigalong.

Yep, doing the wrong thing will ALWAYS come back to bite you on the ass. Be it getting caught or someone hearing about what you did and never trusting you again. Have some honour. Maintain your honour. You are the only one who can take that away from you. Ask but don't tell them you found anything just say you like their land. Keep a look out they'll sell it one day.

Dicko..

I can remember a couple of years ago up at Wedderburn, I saw some diggings on private property. Not knowing the owner but being very interested in swinging a detector, I desided to go up to the farm house to try and get permission. Knocking on the door an old farmer came to the door and I said "Hi, you don't know me from a bar of soap, but my name is so & so and I live in Melb. I'm up here for a few days staying at the local caravan park to do a bit of detecting, and I was wondering if you would give me permission to detect on your property" The old fellow looked at me, gave me a smile and said, By all means, and I'll even open up the gate so you can drive in". Well to cut a long story short. I spent 3 days detecting that property, coming back each day. The day of my departure I went back to that kind old farmer to thank him for he's kind permission, and I also asked him if he would mind in telling me why he gave me permission in the first place. And he's answer was, because I came up to the house, introduced my self, told him were I was staying and asked permission, and not just jumping he's fences as others have done in the past. He was telling me that he even has caught prospectors camped right down in the back corner of he's lower padock and that they must got access through the back gate. I can now go back to that property any time I like, just by being respectful to the property owner. With this approach I have never been knocked back yet. What's that old saying? "Just ask and you will receive" or all they can say is NO, but at least you tried, and this may also give farmer a bit more respect towards detectorist as well, as some farmer do not have a kind word towards us prospectors. Also while I'm detecting I don't like looking over my shoulder ever 5 seconds to see if I'm going to get caught.

Ray,

There's only two solutions.
1. Be happy with your 3 ounces and walk away from possible trouble.
2. Write to the owner asking permission and giving your details etc. Ask him what % he would like of your finds. If it's a silly figure, so what, don't go any further.
It might take a while to get your answer but it might just be worth it.
Anyone who jumps a fence deserves all he gets. It's because of these people that it is so difficult for responsible folks to detect on private property

Good luck

Robert

Hi all..
I intend to approach 'old mate' the property owner, introduce my self and ask him for permission to prospect on his property, if he declines then I will offer him a cash bonus of $100 a day for every time I go there telling him that his property looks as thou it has merit (not fibbing) that I wont be taking out a lease (cant afford to) and that I am looking at new ground outside the public areas (again..not fibbing) calling into the homestead each time upon my arrival to pay him.

If he gets suspicious and still says no ... then I'll go back to the drawing board and keep my trap shut as someone said it may come onto the market to be sold....

tks for all the input


Ray

Good day All.
I would go & introduce myself (take the kids) Tell him where I work & what I do, complement on his property & stock (not in drought times) & ask if you can get permission to do some detecting on his property, if he says no ask if you can bribe him with say a drink or something, UNDER no circumstances go without permission as you will be looking over your shoulder & not enjoying your time & if he still says no thank him for his time & ask if you can come back in say 3 months & ask again.
Cheers Greg.

Hi Ray
What was the outcome of this little patch did you get access?
cheers
Lee

Hi Lee

Yes he jumped at me paying for access... trouble is I have to let him know before hand and he comes out . I have recovered about 16 grams on his place total at the moment... I just need one good crack at it on my own... But it did pay off...

Ray

Use a run and go detector, that way you'll get all the bigger bits without mucking around for smaller bits. Then if you have to run for it you can do so easily. Or do what another poster suggested and ask permissoin, point him in the wrong direction and show him a shczit box detector.

how easily could you do the following scenario?

You walk past a jeweller's window and see a fantastic amount of beautiful gold on display. You really want it , so believe that it should be yours. You decide to walk in and do a grab and snatch and leg it out the door.
What do you think the outcome of this scenario will be?

Theft is theft. Asking permission from the forum to steal or seeking methods from the forum to steal is immoral and secondary is highly illegal.
Paying a tribute to the landholder for access to his land and wealth contained within is the only course of action that should be pursued.
To the forum repliers encouraging the theft, consider that you are also giving people similar rights to enter your property and steal whatever assets that take their fancy. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...

Gday Fadix well said here here I agree totally good post.Cheers Dave

Yes FADIX I couldn't agree more.


Dicko..

This thread was not intented to justify my actions in anyway whatso ever... I already knew what I was going to do... I posted it to see what others would do in the same situation as gold can do funny things to people. Anyone could find themselves in that situation and I wanted to see what an honest response would be firstly and to generate discussion on this subject. So those who are critical of me putting the thread up I suggest take another look at the rationale of it and get off your soapbox.

Ray

Hi Ray & All
I believe you had the best of intentions or else you would not have posed the question you just would have jumped the fence,
Good job Ray, keep at it, even with him looking over your shoulder Im sure he will eventually fully trust you & leave you to your own devices, building up a good reputation in the eyes of property owners takes alot of time & effort but payes dividends.
Best of luck
Lee

Quote..Your discreet inquiries of the land owner show him to be a person of ill repute who is suppose to be responsible for the theft of stock in recent times and the theft of water pumps from houses.

By reading the above I wouldn't be interested in building up a relationship or assisting this guy in anyway.
Yes it's would be great to get a share of gold found on his property but at what cost, just because he is a property owner doesn't make up for the above statement that he is a thief .
It's funny how he watches you like a hawk ,and I think there is something in that, if your honest you tend to look at others in the same way, if you not, well you would most likely behave like this guy.
By letting him know there is gold on his property ,I'm sure he will cut you in ,and with all the new found wealth he will not have to steal from others anymore and will turn over a new leaf and be a great bloke.
Mark

Ray.
Don't be afraid to ask him if he needs a hand .
Cheers Greg.

It's NOT the property owner that you are stealing from if you jump his fence and detect. The property owner has NO right to the minerals that are in the ground, they belong to the CROWN / government.

You only need the property owners permission to be on his land, if he won't give permission well then you have to decide what you want to do next.

Option 1 is to do nothing and give up and go somewhere else.
Option 2 is to peg a claim, may be costly but you get your way and have certain conditions to which you have to comply.

If the area is already under an Exploration Lease from a mining company you need to also seek their permission.

So unless the property owner has a claim or lease pegged of his own, which he is entitled to do there are ways go get what you want, costly as they may be.

cheers dave

Hi all,
on another forum recently, a similar question was asked. My system is posted there and has served me well over the years. A simple phonecall and thankyou gift goes a long way!

Within Victoria, you don't need an exploration leaseholder's permission to be there to do any gold recovery if only using hand means (detecting, panning etc). Thankfully, some common sense has prevailed in VIC by Govt (shock, horror ) and if I recall correctly, this is the same in SA. If only this was recognised in the NT, WA, NSW and QLD!!!!
Cheers, Dwt

Much to my amazement, not even the greens party is against what we do in Victoria as hobby gold detectors.
We are in a lucky state in this regard.
As far as private property goes, You are not trespassing until you are asked to leave and then refuse. Unless the property owner has mineral rights over the property then you can claim as a prospector under your licence (miners right) to any minerals found on the said property. You must leave the property at once when asked by the property owner. You can then stake a mineral claim on the said property if the owner or some other party hasn't done so first. If they have, then give your mineral gains back to to the owner.
This whole stake to rightful ownership goes way back to the pastoral leases before the gold rush. You can have a right to the ground your stock feeds on, but you don't have a right to the minerals. back then until now they were the property of the crown unless you had the right to prospect and hence rightfully claim ownership.
Brett.
PS. Knock on the door first if you want a second shot at the property as you wont get more than one chance if you stick to the rules.
Common sense may be the winner here.

Echidna digger

Jeez you and any that think like you have a cavalier attitude to other peoples property and in my opinion a bloody cheek. Also get your facts straight about the laws of trespass, maybe this will help...

"The most common form of trespass occurs when someone enters on another person’s land without permission. This type of trespass is not a crime but a civil wrong.
You are entitled to eject someone trespassing after they have refused a reasonable request to leave.
Only necessary and reasonable force can be used.
Criminal trespass occurs when a person refuses to leave after a reasonable request has been made."

Note the wording entering "without permission."

Now I own land in the "triangle" and my title clearly states that I own the surface area and DOWN TO A DEPTH OF 50 FEET.

Let me ask you this what would you do if someone climbed over your Melbourne fence and started digging holes in your lawn. People work hard to purchase their properties it's time you respected it.

Jims Gold wrote:Echidna digger

Jeez you and any that think like you have a cavalier attitude to other peoples property and in my opinion a bloody cheek. Also get your facts straight about the laws of trespass, maybe this will help...

"The most common form of trespass occurs when someone enters on another person’s land without permission. This type of trespass is not a crime but a civil wrong.
You are entitled to eject someone trespassing after they have refused a reasonable request to leave.
Only necessary and reasonable force can be used.
Criminal trespass occurs when a person refuses to leave after a reasonable request has been made."

Note the wording entering "without permission."

Now I own land in the "triangle" and my title clearly states that I own the surface area and DOWN TO A DEPTH OF 50 FEET.

Let me ask you this what would you do if someone climbed over your Melbourne fence and started digging holes in your lawn. People work hard to purchase their properties it's time you respected it.

Well said Jim, good to read a post that has the facts of law, not a guestimation. One would think that the first statement by a landowner that it's private land and they don't want you on it, is a fence, thus requirering you to ask permission to enter. Ask always and you could get a suprise like" yep mate, I've got a backhoe if ya need it "
Regards Ric

Jim,
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fence jumper as a rule and I wouldn't suggest that anyone knowingly jump a fence to gain gold. I did post a Ps, that says use common sense. People in the bush tend to think that trespass is some sort of cardinal sin and some idiot land owners have shot at people simply for being on their property. Imagine doing that in Melbourne? Jim, your post states what I was trying to say. Its not illegal to initially trespass.

I have seen the fifty foot rule on old land titles in Vic, but I think it only means you can excavate down to that level for works and you need permition for that anyway but you do not have any rights to extract minerals or gold.
I agree it belongs to the crown and if you have a miners right and follow the process it can be yours.
Thats what the miners right is for and shows this clearly on the Vic Gov miners right site.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpi.vic.gov.au%2Fdpi%2Fnrenmp.nsf%2FLinkView%2F3C2E5B2206D96F73CA2574F300142B8F8B3DA072DA032386CA2573DF001C56C6%2F%24file%2FMinersRight_FAQ.pdf&ei=ssNMSuH2KZLQsQP36qisBQ&usg=AFQjCNE4zXlUHwbHz3HxGWQ23KQ4CFqYVQ

Thats how I have always know it to be and the above sight seems to show the same.
Mark

Interesting question, does a no entry or tresspassers prosecuted sign constitute a denial of entry by the landowner and therefore leave the tresspasser liable to be prosecuted. If you go onto a farmers land and start digging up his carrots or stealing his sheep you will be charged with theft, the same should apply to those stealing gold as a miners right is not a licence to break the law. mallee00 and the mutt

mallee00 wrote:Interesting question, does a no entry or tresspassers prosecuted sign constitute a denial of entry by the landowner and therefore leave the tresspasser liable to be prosecuted. If you go onto a farmers land and start digging up his carrots or stealing his sheep you will be charged with theft, the same should apply to those stealing gold as a miners right is not a licence to break the law. mallee00 and the mutt

Malleoo,
I think your on to the way of thinking for this topic.
I think he owns the carrots so to speak but does he have ownership to the minerals?
Some say yes to a certain depth and yet there is another way of thinking that says he owns the top so many foot of land but not the minerals.
PS. hows the mutt?
Brett.