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A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25

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Post  Guest Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:54 pm

Howdy, not quite directly gold related, but can't get many places with a car...

So, i have just bought a 4x4 diesel navara 86 model with sd25 engine to try to get me to those far flung places! (where this is gold hopefully!)
Wondering if anyone has experience with these or similiar as it had a good life until someone gave it a hard life, and now it needs a little TLC to get it running again.

So, what i have done so far...

  • degreased and cleaned under the bonnet a bit- was filthy as the dip stick was found down in front of the radiator and it had blown oil out of the dipstick hole....
  • pressed the primer on top of the fuel filter about 5 times
  • put a battery in it
  • turned the key- found the glow plugs relay seems to work- light glows for about 10 seconds then goes off, gave it a second glow to be sure.
  • engine turned over, it was trying to start after a while but it couldnt quite get there...
  • searched for "start ya bastard" in shed- finally found it.
  • a squirt of that down the hole.
  • still wouldn't start ?

I will replace the glow plugs as I am not sure about them, but i wonder about the fuel supply situation, can anyone help with some advice?
I have not worked on a diesel before, so am not confident in priming etc after changing fuel filter and basic things like that.

Cheers, Ferrous.

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Post  rc62burke Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:29 pm

Hi Ferrous
Oil everywhere, dipstick found by radiator, I would be concerned as to how long it had been run like this as it could have blown out most of the oil & run a bit dry this will do some serious damage, I would try to give it the old pull start treatment with another vehicle, check the oil level & quality first, when you drain the oil check to see if there is a magnet on the sump plug bolt check to see if it has picked up any metal fragments this will indicate any wear, once it's started you will hear any knock's etc , give it an oil flush treatment & water flush treatment, change oil @ 5000 klm intervals, get yourself a Gregory's manual very handy tool, I own a Hilux.
cheers
Lee
ps. early Navara's are known to scrub out front end tyres .
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Post  Nightjar Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:42 pm

Hello Ferrous,
If the dip stick did actually blow out it means the crankcase was under extreme pressure, which could mean the rings are shot or it has blown a piston.
I wouldn't renew the glow plugs at this stage.
As Lee suggests get a Gregory manual and work your way through that.

Changing a fuel filter is simple, to save the amount of pumps on the priming pump I always fill the new filter with diesel first, fit it, then pump the primer until it dead heads and you can't pump any more.
If you still can't get it run, a compression test would be worthwhile. Hire a compression gauge and remove all the injectors and record pressure on each cylinder. If pressures are within recommended range, connect your injectors to their respective fuel pipe outside the engine and observe the spray pattern of each injector when you crank the engine.

Reading your description of the condition of the engine bay of this vehicle, you may have a long haul getting this vehicle in a reliable running condition, but it will sure keep you out of mischief for a month or three.
I am on to my third Nissan and the clock is ticking over to a combined one million kilometres, however all three were Patrols.
Lee mentions scrubbing out front tyres, early Nissans were notorious for this because they were designed and built for European roads which are flat, as opposed to our cambered roads. I fitted a modification to my earlier Patrol that enabled camber adjustment to overcome the scrubbing of front tyres.
Good luck with your project.

Peter


Last edited by Nightjar on Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added further info)
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Post  Guest Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:11 pm

Thanks Lee & Peter for reposnses,

Where the dipstick was found was in front of the radiator, i think it fell there after being put near there by some person who then wondered where on hell the dipstick went... A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_razz

All i know is, apparently it was running and appears to have blown a cooling hose somewhere- one side of the engine bay was brown from dirty coolant water, the other side was mostly oil covered.
I had a diesel sd25 720 years ago, but again, apart from change oil, i didn't do the servicing.
It needs a new radiator that's for sure as the cooling fins just disintegrate into filings when touched.

It's a shame cause the engine only has 195,000 original km's on it. I am still hoping it will run again after a fiddle here and there, but i realise it may have a cracked head or worse. Apparently glow plugs suffer when overheated also, so I read.

I will try priming until the pump "deadheads", the beast had been sitting for 6 months or more and i wasn't sure and thought a few pumps couldn't hurt it. It wasn't far off starting though- with a proper primer pump up, who knows?
Will check it with the charged battery again, as was getting low on electricity.
Will ask around for the camber kit you mentioned.

Cheers.

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Post  fastgold Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:53 pm

Suggest you crank over and crackone injector at a time open and shut ensuring you have free flow of diesel. do this to all injectors starting from rear injector.Then remove hose clamp and hose at air inlet and spray ether based spray can like aero start while cranking over. They have bee n known to just compress air behind injectors primer or no primerand as such not open injector.you can also test by spraying the aero start and stop spraying to the inlet.IF THE MOTOR DOESNT CONTINUE TO RUN its most likely what i said or your in real big trouble as then its probably big bucks time ie too lower compression which means a rebuild more than likely as suggested previously,mark

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Post  fastgold Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:15 pm

Sorry,forgot to mention about glow plugs. 80% of time its fuse 15% gunk on plugs so re move and clean the other being that its stuffed and its unusual if there all stuffed, usually one ,regards mark and dont bother until you sort out fuel as should start with aero start as fuel is probably stale

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Post  hoolahoopa Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:57 pm

I would try changing the fuel as well.After 6 months sitting it probably wouldn't be to flash either.

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Post  Guest Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:49 pm

update. A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Kopfschuettel

after checking glow plug system and found all satisfactory, i changed the fuel filter.

So i finally got the old girl started (thanks to all your help and no doubt the can of "start ya bastard"), but it sounds like its done a piston or valves are stuck open or something horrible.

The local wreckers told me (before i bought the old girl) they had a SD25 motor, but it is a TD25 A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Confused

Does anyone know whether that TD25 will bolt up to my rig?
The td25 is out of a 87? ish 2wd manual, and mine is a 4wd 86 navara D21 i think.

Cheers, stuck up the creek without a fourby....!

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Post  fastgold Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:20 pm

Iron thief A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_biggrin , take off rocker cover and check that valve retainers are holding springs etc when rocker arm in top position, ie has a slight gap, if ok, check, if the valves depress properly, time to check that compression if the rest seems ok,which means valve grind time, low comp due to rings, or hole in piston. Crank over and visually make sure that it is not a blown head gasketbefore checking compression.CHECK SUMP OIL THAT THERE IS no coagulation or milky colour as that is also pretty good idea that the head gasket is shot Could also mean that you have cracked head but eliminate the rest before the new motor scenario,regards ,mark P.S. you can have my share of nails as well

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Post  Guest Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:37 pm

cheers fastgold,
I find my ferrous fair and square, but i could leave it in the hole for you if you like?!! A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_lol Wouldn't want to deprive anyone else of their fair share of ferrous! A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_rabbit

Will have a look under the rocker tommorow, might get as far as a test.

Should i take all the injectors out for the compression test? (if i get that far!) complete novice here at diesels.... any spelling it out helps?!!

cheers again.

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Post  fastgold Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:27 pm

prefer to do it one at a time mainly because if you have shot head gasket it is usually at outer edges or between bores that the gasket is shot ie the narrowest spots If between bores then pressure also escapes thru injector hole adjacent but at tha end it is really preference only,mark Keep that mongrel iron in your own hole i got plenty enough in mine. It might be famous last words in 20 yrs when the price is squillions per ton and we're all chasing it

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Post  Nightjar Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:47 am

Morning Ferrous,
Nissan early engines are the SD22, 23, 25 & 33, all a naturally aspirated engines. 22= 2.2litre etc etc.
TD denotes Turbo diesel, this engine would be a SD25 turbocharged and should match up without a problem.
You would need some sort of guarantee from the wrecker that this engine is a goer or you will be pouring out good money after bad.
Anyway you have a project ahead of you and should have a few bits of ferrous left over to test your detector. A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_biggrin

Good luck

Peter
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Post  Guest Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:06 pm

update!

So i took off the rocker cover and have found that all looks pretty good...with the exception of number 4 valve rocker arm- broken!
The valve pushes down ok and seems alright, and the broken piece of rocker arm was just sitting quite nicely next to it, all in one piece!

This valve is a exhaust valve. I did wonder why it sounded like the wacking noise was coming from the air filter! Now i know.
So i have taken off the rocker shaft assembly, have pulled the shaft down to the busted arm and now waiting for a bit to find out about getting a replacement arm. Not sure what the cylinder or rings underneath would be like, any ideas? I am guessing that was why the oil came of the dipstick hole- crankcase pressure/ blowby.... cylinder is probably stuffed i guess A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Suspect ?

I am trying to avoid doing a compression test or taking the head off....so the saga continues!!
At this stage, i just plan to put it back together and see what it's like when running.... I have got no idea yet about the running gear etc yet, so don't want to go too far with the engine yet.

I have since found out the TD series most likely have different bellhousings.... and the SD25 comes with 4wd/ oil pump off the timing case & 2wd with the oil pump in the sump! go figure! handy if you tend to smash your sump while 4wdriving!
I rung around and there are no SD25 motors around at wreckers i tried.... seemingly a rare beast now, and there I was thinking they were fairly common. I had one in a nissan 720 i had years ago.
Anyway, cheers for helping. Keep it coming! A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_lol

Ferrous.

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Post  Nightjar Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:39 pm

Hello Ferrous,
At least you now know why the dipstick blew out and difficult to start.
With the exhaust valve not opening the compression had to go somewhere, in this instance past the rings into the sump, hopefully you haven't blown a head gasket.
A broken rocker arm indicates this engine has been thrashed and over revved. Very hardy buckets of bolts though, you may be lucky.
At least the valve hasn't seized?
You should be able to get a rocker arm from a wrecker, fit this, renew oil and filter and crank her up again.
Am interested in hearing how it runs after this work.

Cheers
Peter


Last edited by Nightjar on Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wording)
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Post  Darylr Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:45 pm

Hello Ferrous,

Been watching your saga. If you fit another rocker and get the engine running you will find it will run rough for a while until the gunk clears out of the cylinder and the rings start to seal up again. Hopefully it hasnt been run too much with the broken rocker. Also get some lubricant down the valve stem to help it start moving again.

Good luck with it, sometimes you can be lucky and not too much damage done.

regards

Darylr
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Post  Guest Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:20 pm

Ok, going by the rarity of these engines at wreckers, i didn't like my chances of finding a spare head or bits lying around, so i bit the bullet and forked out nigh on $70 at the local nissan dealers for one- that was trade price too!

So its together ready to go back on tomorrow.

Hey Daryl, do you know Gary at Toormina (near coffs harbour)? has a skip bin business?
If you do, thank him for me for selling me such an interesting vehicle! A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_lol

I have my fingers crossed hoping for some good luck, but why should lady luck start shining on me now?! A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_lol never has before! A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_rolleyes

cheers for the help!!
ferrous.

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:40 am

Hey,ff make sure that all the bits are accounted for from brocken rocker arm before firing up as you dont want to end up with scoured bore. P.s. decided to send you some free rain for those holes,mark

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Post  Guest Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:40 pm

Well, i don't know how it was running the other day.... must have been one cylinder firing A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_scratch ?

So i put it back together and have realised only 5 of 8 valves are going up and down.... A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_geek

I am thinking that the valves are ok, so this this leads me to wonder about the camshaft and lifters. I have never done anything in an engine below the head.
I don't really know why some pushrods are not pushing except for a guess that lobes are busted off the camshaft? or something wrong with the lifters? can't tell from manual- i think to access them the head has to come off.
The valves that don't work are fully closed.

I found a manual online for it, but its not much help to me, it's not a gregorys/ haynes its a nissan thing. Covers the SD diesel engines only. For the body and anything else, there is another nissan manual.... for $110 which doesn't cover the diesels..... but the body and running gear is the last of my worries at the moment!!

Anyway, my 4500 box came back from minelab service dept for warranty repair today (purchased early May). There was no fixed ground balance!! even with switch in fixed, it still performed and beeped as in tracking, very annoying when digging a piece off ferrous poo and having to reground balance just to pinpoint!
I now have something else to do! Maybe if i go find a big hunk of the yellow i could pay to get a reco engine?!!

Any thoughts on where i go from here?

Cheers!
Ferrous.

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:43 pm

OK FF FIRST take can and dewater hole then answer the following. not being up with nissansd have these overhead camshaft or is camshaft in motor,as it sounds like the lifters are the hydraulic type and are shot. If overhead is it single camshaft or twin. Are the valves not opening random or all exhaust or inlet. Secondly i forgot to tell you when you had rockers off to give all the valves a hit on the head with hammer to make sure valve is not stuck.BE CAREFUL DONT HIT RETAINER COLLETS OR SPRINGor your next trip may be to the hospital if the spring whops you in the face,mark

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Post  Guest Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:58 pm

I did push the valves in a bit (i am satisfied the valves are ok and not stuck...i think) ,
and pushrods/rocker arm/ valves that are not moving are exhaust valves (3 of 4 exhaust valves not in operation) all intake valves/ rockers are working
Not overhead cam, in the bowels of the thing...
Not sure if lifters are solid or hydraulic....

I had a good look, and there is no movement whatsoever on the 3 valves mentioned when cranking?

http://pdftown.com/Nissan-Diesel-Engine-SD22-SD23-SD25-SD33-Service-Manual-2nd-Revision.html

This is the manual available. To me, it looks like the head has to come off, and take the cam shaft out to get to the lifters if that is the problem.... A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Kopfschuettel

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:06 pm

ff, forgot to pass on the following info for the books on your nissan This guy is the mine lab of books.
beven d young 08 82985548 or e-mail beven@bevenyoung.com website is http://www.bevenyoung.com.au,regards mark

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:28 pm

ff,it is highly unlikly that its the lobes on the camshaft, i've not had a chance to look at that info yet but is there a long narrow cover plate half way down side of motor which you can access pushrods etc You sure that the valves moved not the slop in the rocker arm when open.SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE HAS OVER REVVED AND VALVE BOUNCED IT AND BENT THE PUSHRODS. jUST SEEMS STRANGE AS NORMALLY YOU ONLY BEND ONE OR TWO. This is drag racing type stuff. So if your sure that the valves are opening pull off cover plate and with torch and steel rule check pushrods,mark

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:26 pm

ff, i hope you have the gaps right when valve is in closed position and camshaft at top of lobe position,mark

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Post  Guest Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:57 pm

I didnt change the gaps ( by gaps i guess you are meaning the adjustment from the rocker arm to the top of pushrod?)

When i put the new arm on i just adjusted to same as others (while on the bench with a straight edge), all were very close to each other - service manual says to set gap when engine hot!!
but the gaps are close enough for the bigger picture- would definately need to be set properly when engine hot.

There is no side panel on this engine, so no easy access to lifters A call for help with a diesel navara 86 model sd25  Icon_mad

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:19 pm

ff,no little squares on side, these are usually under exhaust manifold and pain in neck to get to, sometimes hole above camshaft sprocket at front behind timing cover plate. Personally i think youve got to pull the head off stage 99% bet though that you can get a sighter from somewhere as usually when stuffed they spaghetti so wont slide out of top of block but try when headoff P.s use proper 1/2" drive socket with hex head if head bolts are hex type as as you will just twist allan key and ruin,mark

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:43 pm

FF, are different between inlet and outlet.ie mine when cold is .7mm for inlet and 1.0 mm for exhaust ie exhaust side has larger expansion.You will have to check with man but gives you an idea. Any luck with beven, he's pretty good and will probably some of the data over phone to you,mark

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Post  Guest Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:13 pm

Its supposed to be 0.35mm gap for both intake and exhaust on this one.

I have to decide if I want to go further now, the manual says remove the lifters after you take out the crankshaft.... after you remove the head,
its almost looking like it might as well be a full rebuild job seeing as its nearly halfway there by the time i do all that!

Thanks for the link, I now have the Nissan service manual for this engine type. Its no where near as good or illustrated as gregorys/haynes stuff though.

Cheers for all the help. The project is on halt for a while now. Will let you know what I decide to do as once you take a head off there is no going back without spending some money!

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Post  fastgold Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:48 pm

FF,all i was thinking was if you removed rockers and pulled out pushrods you would know if they were bent which would save you going to all that other drama and if that was the case you could replace rods and have a goer,mark

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Post  Guest Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:00 am

Gday Ferrousfinder


From my experience with repairing diesel engines, I would have to say that I would be more inclined to be looking about for a good used engine than to pump money into a donk that sounds as though it has been poorly maintained and possibly badly treated.

Also the costs for say repairing a head or replacing it or even the head gasket and rocker gear would cost well over $500 possibly more and then you could only find that it may need rings and reboring etc etc, it would be more economical to take it to someone that is in the game and get them to test it all out for you, it might cost a few hundred bucks but it could save you a lot more than that in the long run.

I had a Pajero turbo diesel that ended up with a cracked head, the only reason that I bought it in the first place was that I was assured that it had been completely re built, and I was given a written warranty as well, anyway long story short the head failed and they refused to repair it under the warranty, by the time that I had replaced the head and gaskets and labour, it was in access of $3000 by the time it was back on the road, although it ran well and all I had lost faith in it and I sold it.

Guess that you just have to do your sums and see what the best way to go would be for you, anyway good luck with it.

cheers


stayyerAU

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Post  fastgold Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:32 pm

Dont talk to me about pajero's ,bought one from wreckers for cheap price that was supposed to have head gasket only gone and ended up doing regrind on head rehone,rings and mains replacement o crank another set of rods and pistons and new idler arm bearings ,lucky i got all the parts for about 300 .the story being that after 200 kms i decided to give it a bit of stick going up big long hill and did timing belt which means rods hit idler so now sitting in back yard needing another set of rods.Bloody s--t design and would pee of idlers if wasnt for fact that one drives oil pump so dont touch d55 or d56,mark

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