Are we focusing too much on small nuggets?

nero_design wrote:

Jonathan Porter wrote:..... most of which were just sales pitch driven stereotypical nonsense.
(moments later):....As I demonstrated quite clearly in [my] GPX Factor DVD on a 100 plus gram nugget...

I rest my case. You are indeed the biggest hypocrite on the forums today. I've never once attempted to sell a product via forum interraction. I've never needed to. It's not my job. And I share information or discuss subjects that interest me. Not for other reasons and never for personal gain because THIS is my hobby and interest. You use these forums as a platform for your own bleating. The only thing I can be accused of is trolling... and that's something I am ashamed to say that I actually enjoy. Sadly, I only seem to capture Porterfish and Tuna.

Marco I pointed to the video because it's evidence that the Mono coils do punch in deep using the tools provided by Minelab, and that the gold had been missed by DD coils in the past and that the majority of people reading these forums have seen the footage. I'm upfront about comments I make on public forums especially ones that plug my business, your drivel is always surreptitious innuendo based around suggestive marketing hype steeped in innocuous comments such as this

nero_design wrote: Whilst this would be considered by some to be simply hearsay because I was not there to witness the original conversation, I was told last week that Minelab's 'chief scientist' once advised an acquaintance of mine that the 15x12" Minelab DD coils was (at the time) the best coil to use. Please note that this was before the GPX was released. He seemed to feel that anything larger was likely to be a problem for the detectorist.

What exactly are you trying to say here, that you know someone who knows Minelab's Chief Scientist personally therefore adding to your creds? Minelab's chief Scientist once commented in an interview I did with him that a 15" Monoloop coil was about the sweet spot for the Smooth Class of timings. So give us a break Marco, at the very least stop insulting everyone's intelligence by posting up rubbish hidden in long winded posts that constantly keeps contradicting itself over and over again. I sincerely hope Dave is perusing these forums because your comments do his business no good at all.

This thread is a good subject that warrants discussion, I'm sure your more than welcome to offer up your thoughts on the matter but at least try to be well informed on the comments you offer up, especially the ones you try so hard to make seem factual!

JP

hey JP and Nero. use both have good piont in your post, the way i look at it is there's allways going to be someone who will not agree on someones post, insted off going back and forward with who's right and who's wrong just post what you think is right and peolpe can read both posts and take in what both people have to say. this forum is great for info and people have great info that others didn't know. Use both are great with your information and i do love reading them. but i think this is getting a bit personal
cheers
stoppsy

UNCLE BOB wrote:G'day Marco and JP,
It looks like you two have different views and expressing them online on this forum makes one wonder.
Why don't you two get together in Person and I am sure that you can become friends, you will be able to learn from each other and gain some respect for each other as well. I think it will be great for all cocerned. Hope things work out for the both of you...!!!
Keep in good cheer,
uncle bob.

Have made those attempts numerous times in the past, have also ignored factually incorrect comments for the greater good of the forum, but this latest treatise takes the cake. DD coils still have their place in the arsenal of serious detectorists, however to suggest they will outperform a Monoloop coil in high mineralisation is off beam as can be attested by all the gold found with Monoloops in recent years, that gold was missed for a reason because not that long ago a DD coil was the only game in town when it came to noisy ground. I feel offering up such advice especially to new comers to the art is doing them a disservice. Why is it do you think Minelab are now offering the GPX 5000 with a Monoloop coil in the package?

I'm sorry if my comments made here make people uncomfortable, from an inexperienced point of view the subject at hand can seem innocuous enough, from my perspective it's just plain wrong and should be corrected.

JP

i can see what your saying JP... but i do think that this is getting personal with you and Nero in away tho. i just hope use keep up with the great info that use have for this forum and you never know use might agree on something oneday....
cheers
stoppsy

nero_design wrote:Porter, every time you go crying to someone because someone disagreed with you, they tend to phone me to ask why I made you cry. At first this was amusing. Now it's just sad. I'm sick of defending your insecurities. I avoid naming names out of courtesy though you seem to do it to bignote yourself. And everyone thinks less of you for it. You know what your esteemed handlers think of our threads? They tell me "it's like watching two little girls squabbling over a marble". And that's a direct quote. Makes me laugh but you should be ashamed of yourself.

To a point I agree Marco, but sometimes you got to get down in the dirt to fix the flats! If squabbling over a marble is what it takes to keep learners from being misinformed by trumpeters like you then I'm only to happy to oblige. BTW My name is Jonathan.

JP

hey JP and Nero. use both have good piont in your post, the way i look at it is there's allways going to be someone who will not agree on someones post, insted off going back and forward with who's right and who's wrong just post what you think is right and peolpe can read both posts and take in what both people have to say. this forum is great for info and people have great info that others didn't know. Use both are great with your information and i do love reading them. but i think this is getting a bit personal
cheers
stoppsy.

Hi JP and Marco,
I agree with Stoppsy here....
uncle bob.

Back on the posts topic, i suggest that many hobby detectorists target small and easier gold because it gets a result on a days detecting, they enjoy the outdoors and any gold is a bonus. Its not much fun carrying a big pick and swinging big coils all day for no result. mallee00 and the mutt

mallee00 wrote:Back on the posts topic, i suggest that many hobby detectorists target small and easier gold because it gets a result on a days detecting, they enjoy the outdoors and any gold is a bonus. Its not much fun carrying a big pick and swinging big coils all day for no result. mallee00 and the mutt

Hear Hear, and so say all of us.

JP

Are you not entertained?

/Back to the subject at hand.... Plenty more smaller bits of gold out there that the monos can pick up on. It's no surprise people like to play it safe.

the reason i love running a smaller coil is after the rain we have had i have found a lot off small stuff near the top off the grounds. i don't know if this is the same reason people are picking up the smaller gold or not....
cheers
stoppsy

Uncomfortable to a newbie or learner you say JP,On the contrary.Whether views are deemed to be correct or not so correct,let each individual decide on that one. I can assure you that we all gain something from each and every members posts,regardless of whether we like them or not.As long as it abides by forum rules,no member should fear to post and express their views regarding a particular topic on this forum.If it weren't for knowledgeable people such as Stayyer,Tuna,Nero,Narrawa,yourself and several others,that i cant think of at the moment,This Forum wouldn't be the so called "praised by so many people forum".that it is today.

Cheers kon61.

G'day JP

probably answered before but why would you run a 4500 with a mono coil on DD.

DD mode is the same mode as the search mode on the SD series and Normal mode on the GP extreme. It generally gives slightly better depth over Mono mode which was originally designed to convert a DD coil into a pseudo monoloop coil, because a Mono coil doesn't have two windings the Mono mode does not work with Mono coils, but it does provide a slightly more stable platform for the coil to work from especially when EMI is present.

Hope this helps,

JP

thanks JP, I think I saw that on your DVD but forgotten about it. I might need to have a refresher course and rewatch it.

Hi JP,
Thanks for your post giving settings that you use. I always enjoy your DVD's & posts.
Cheers
"TWO BOB"

Hi brookesy888, The hip sticks on ebay are a great unit. The seller is a prospector with over 30yrs experiance he also has magnets. Cheers "TWO BOB"

Jonathan Porter wrote:DD mode is the same mode as the search mode on the SD series and Normal mode on the GP extreme. It generally gives slightly better depth over Mono mode which was originally designed to convert a DD coil into a pseudo monoloop coil, because a Mono coil doesn't have two windings the Mono mode does not work with Mono coils, but it does provide a slightly more stable platform for the coil to work from especially when EMI is present.

Hope this helps,

JP

Id like to say that iv picked this mans brains for a fairly long time now, and in doing so has made me a lot smarter when it comes to choosing the right coil for the job.
Having had the pleasure of detecting on the mans property, i came with the wrong coil and was told to come back tomorrow with a DD coil. To which i did and took his gold. (not forgotten)
The reason given as to why the 11" mono was no good on that ground was something i wont forget, even tho the new model detectors can now deal with that issue to some extent. But having worked with a gent on the weekend with a 3500 the issue was present and the teaching i learned passed on, as to was the teachings from a couple of other very skillful operators.

Its no secrete JP and i like to banter on some of the settings, but at the end of the day, i still pay close attention to what it is he is trying to educate me on in regards to what it is im doing with them. And to that he gets a great deal of my respect because i dont pay him for that info. Yet i get payed for what it is iv learned from him in the form of gold.

A lot of what i pass onto folks out in the field comes directly from experiences, both from what iv learned and from what iv been told by the correct source of information...information that i can trust thats not going to make me look like a dork latter on down the track.

To the above quote, iv questioned this thing with the DD vs mono for a long time and could only see the benefit from the mono in mono mode, not the other.
Iv asked a few times about it and its probably just my thick skull as to why over the years when the question was asked, he gave the same answer. Now i know, because i came across its benefits. I still use the mono coil in mono mode when i have to, but not when i dont. You dont go against the majority unless you know something they dont, and many of us could only see the benefit of mono in mono mode. (EMI)

I stand corrected on this, and pass on the info now having a better grasp on it.

And in the red corner ..................... whoops - try not to get personal guys, we know you both have differing views, just keep the personalities out of it. You both have a lot of offer and it is appreciated.

Endevouring to read through all the material, I am reading what a great job the 5000 and the 4500 do with the mono and large monos go as deep as the older 2100 but with better sensitivity.

Is there a role for the DD then with the newer machines? They are necessary with the 3500 and older machines because of mineralization, but the newer machines have overcome this.

Jeff

G'day Jeff.

If the newer machines such as the 5000 had fully overcome the problem of mineralization when used in conjunction with mono coils,then what purpose would there be for Minelab to also recommend or emphasize the use of of the Commander DD series coils,on page 83 of the Instruction manual.Surely the DDs recommended for use on the 5000 aren't for discriminating purposes only.

Cheers kon61.

Is there a role for the DD then with the newer machines? They are necessary with the 3500 and older machines because of mineralization, but the newer machines have overcome this.


I still use a 10x5 DD on my 4500 for working creek beds in the sharp timing and in mono mode. Now put that combo together with what JP said about the windings on a DD coil vs a mono coil and what have you got.??
(they also have more windings on the receive so are more sensitive to shallow surface targets compared to a similar sized Monoloop in conventional timings)

The only advantage in using a DD coil is the ability to also use discrimination and the Normal timings in hottish soils which can offer full depth of the coil if the conditions allow)

A DD in cancel for working in and around power lines is far more pleasurable to work then a mono around them.

A DD in sharp and in cancel/mono..... the combos are worth checking out.
As much as i love my mono coils, i still find a good use for my DD.

Out of interest use the supplied DD coil in Cancel mode, Fine Gold timings, Fixed GB, Gain flat out or as high as you can handle it, Motion on Medium, Stabilizer on 12, Audio on Boost and then target an area that has high surface mineralisation but is shallow but also known for a lot of little nuggets (a lot of the Victorian surfacing patches spring to mind here). The out of Phase nature of Cancel mode will deal with EMI and also the conductive component of the soils, the Fine Gold timing will deal with the mineralisation, the Boost audio will lift the faintest signals, the faster Motion setting will allow you to whip the coil while really lifting the response on tiny nuggets and of course the high Stabilizer setting will bring the tiny responses in a lot better too.

It's better to use these settings in an area with minimal grass cover because there will be a bit of faint falsing when brushing grass, easy enough to fix by backing off the Gain and other settings till things settle down. One coil that should be really good at this type of detecting is the 10" elliptical DD Commander (I think I might have described it as a 12" elsewhere), just remember the transmit and receive windings are reverse on it compared to other DD's which means the right hand winding is the hot one, you could say this coil is a truly left handed coil.

JP

Its been brought to my attention a comment has been made on another forum about my suggested settings further back in this post, particularly about my recommending setting the detector in Medium Tracking speed even though I'm using Fixed when using the Smooth class of timings. So I would like to explain in case others have misunderstood where I am coming from.

The Medium Tracking speed is the exact same speed that was used in the SD2200, and most probably the same speed that is used in the Minelab VLF detectors dating back to the GT 16000. This speed was chosen for a reason and it offers the best compromise between actively tracking the ground whilst avoiding tracking out a good target whilst not being swamped by changeable ground. One of the methods I used (and still do) when I was using the detectors in Tracking was to hit the Quick Trak button wait the 3 to 5 second period of time whilst pumping the coil then circle the coil slowly around the suspect target zone to get an average of the ground conditions rather than have the detector sample one narrow section of ground, I still use this method to a certain extent with the Smooth type timings but making sure the coil is held as parallel to the ground as possible.

Medium Tracking really is the sweet spot for detecting in Tracking mode, when in fixed it is also the best option for obtaining an averaging of the soils under your coil, so I recommend operators wait for the forced GB to pass then let the detector settle on the Medium speed before finalising the Ground Balance when using the Smooth type timings, this way the algorithm has the best chance of coming up with a correct mathematical figure to suit the ground conditions in your chosen location. If you feel the GB has gone off whack and is struggling to centralise again, firstly place the Tracking switch to Tracking then go into the GB Type menu and set the GB Type to OFF, turn the machine off then on again, then go back to General GB making sure to place the Tracking switch back to Fixed and reground balance, placing the detector in OFF GB resets the GB back to the middle letting you then obtain an accurate GB for your chosen location.

Hope this answers my critics,

JP

Jonathan Porter wrote:



Hope this answers my critics,

JP

mate theres no chance of that, i have not had a look yet but i reckon all sorts of words like "spin" "lemmings" "jighadist's"
are being thrown around at the moment....


by the way HI DOUGIE....

Jonathan Porter wrote:If you feel the GB has gone off whack and is struggling to centralise again, firstly place the Tracking switch to Tracking then go into the GB Type menu and set the GB Type to OFF, turn the machine off then on again, then go back to General GB making sure to place the Tracking switch back to Fixed and reground balance, placing the detector in OFF GB resets the GB back to the middle letting you then obtain an accurate GB for your chosen location.
JP

Thats some useful info JP - Will definitely try this when the GB goes loopy ...

Thanks
ARARAT

Hi guys, this is a very interesting topic, big nuggets.
Now, I don't want to stir up any angry conversation here, so don't take anything I say personally

Nero, I was just wondering, how do you get on with the DD's on your 5000? I know that you get out and about detecting a bit, and I'm very interested in what you have found with DD's on the GPX detectors, and also do you feel that the gold you find using the DD could have been found with an equivalent sized mono?
Cheers
Thanks for this great thread!

Hi Guys, Yes this has been a very good thread. Sorry to see the conflict between a couple of you. I respect you both & follow your threads & info with huge interest. I guess there will always be differences of opinions & thats human nature & that can make for some interesting debate.
In NZ our gold is usually pretty small & we are lucky to have pretty quiet ground. Hence mono coils are my coil of choice & I will only use a DD if working close to powerlines or an electric fence or EMI is making the mono too noisy. Small gold is better than no gold.
I have just got back from 7 days detecting down in Central Otago. The only DD I took was the standard 11" coil that came with my detector. The rest were all mono's. I am using a bit of an old detector by todays standards. A GP 3000. The mono's I took were coiltek 6", coiltek 10" X 5", nuggetfinder 12" X 7", minelab 11" commander, minelab 15" X 12" commander, coiltek 18" & coiltek 24" X 12" UFO.
I used the nuggetfinder 12" X 7" & the coiltek 6" to go over some shallow ground just above some old workings that I had gone over the last time I was down there. I managed to get 14 bits with the nugget finder on the first day. They were all sub grammers except two. One at 2.55 grams & one at 1.05 grams. they were all very shallow.
The next day I put on the 24" X 12" UFO coil, my patch finder, to cover new ground more quickly & try to hit on to another patch. Only managed a 1.37 gram bit & a .68 after covering quite a big area. Getting a bit frazzled I went back to the spot I was on the day before & put on the 6" mono. Managed to get 3 more bits. A 1.09 grammer & 2 sub grammers.
On the third day I used the 24" X 12" UFO again & hit on to a small patch of 8 pieces with it in a small area. Lots of .22 shells from rabbit shooters & lead bullet heads. I started to ignore those type of signals as it was bloody hot & I only started digging those sure sounding soft mellow signals that were usually gold or lead. I then put on the 15" X 12" commander & went over the same ground & got 3 more bits. 2 sub grammers & a little speci that was 1.30 grams. This was the first time I had used this coil & I was gobsmacked at its sensitivity & depth on these small pieces. I like it. Total for that day was 11 bits for 14.05 grams.
The next 3 days I went somewhere else & hit a small creek that had quite a bit of exsposed bed rock. I put on the 6" mono & just targeted the bed rock both in the water & above it. Over the 3 days I got 27 bits, all sub grammers for a total of 5.92 grams.
The next day I went back to the little patch I had found & used the nuggetfinder 12" X 7" & decided to dig up all the loud in your face signals incase they were masking a faint good signal. My first signal was a .22 shell, which I thought it was going to be. The 2nd was also going to be a .22 shell as it was a loud sharp in your face signal......or was it?????? Two scrapes with the pick & it was gone. .22 shell for sure. Scooped up the pile & waved my hand over the coil & WHAM!!!! Then the signal had gone. It fell out of my hand & on to the coil. BLOODY HELL.....a gold nugget that ended up being 8.5 grams. Just goes to show.... dig all signals. No matter what. I also got a .57 gram bit as well.
On my last day I put on the 12" X 15" & used it as my patch finder. Only managed 2 sub grammers. I then whacked on the 10" X 5" joey coil & went in amongst some old shallow workings & managed to squeak out 3 sub grammers. I never used the DD or the 18" mono. I used a hip stick on the 12" x 15" & the 24" X 12" UFO & could swing them all day effortlessly. I love the hip stick. Was detecting in deep/sensitive/fixed/all metal settings mostly with the occasional flick into normal.
All up I got 41 grams in 65 pieces. Mono's rule. Photos to follow. Camera is miss behaving at the moment.

Happy hunting

JW

Well done Kiwijw on your haul of nuggets you have to be happy with that.
I enjoyed reading your post on your trip away the coils you used and the
ground you were working keep up the good work.
Love to see a photo of those nuggets when you can.Frog

Hi all,in regards to large nuggets at depth,what weight or size nugget would you call large and what depth would you call deep? Also 2 years ago when i bought a 18" NF DD round, i questioned the dealer about these coils and large nuggets at depth and he told me using an 18" coil your roughly looking at nuggets 10 ounce + at about a metre deep max? Any truth in all this do you think or not. thanks MARTY

Marty this one was found at 910mm with a nuget finder coil

WOW MATE!! Did it give much of a signal do you know, at that depth?