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GPZ 7000 Manual Ground Balance

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Post  norvic Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:19 am

Righto, for a few years now I have been using my GPZ in manual ground balance with excellent results in both quiet ground and extremely noisy variable ground.

A warning if your into knocking things without trying, don`t read any further.

Very simply it is the same method many of us use/used with the PIs and before that with the Auto tracking VLFs. Simply set you Z to Manual ground balance, to ground balance press the QT button and pump your coil up and down over the ground as you do with any other detector, the QT is so quick on the Z only a couple of pumps are necessary. Detect away Qting whenever the ground varies, make sure you turn off notifications to ensure remove that pesky notification that will frustrate you. I don`t use the ferrite, although trying when they first were introduced by ML free to existing Z owners. I`m no Lone Ranger and suspect there are a lot out there who have been doing this on the quiet. Easy as...…….think outside the Square

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Post  peterinaust Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:03 am

Thanks for the tip norvic, I had often thought about manual ground balance, but never took the time out from the same routine to investigate.
Like you say think outside the square.

Cheers and Merry Christmas.

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Post  Kon61gold Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:29 pm

Norvic, you suspect right, for I'm one of those that has been using manual ground balance on the Z from the day it were first released. Although a little more sensitive to ground conditions & a little more effort is required to keep the detector regularly ground balanced, over time it becomes second nature.
I also feel when detecting in manual ground balance, I have much faster ground balance control, than what I can achieve from when in auto ground balance, allowing me to cover ground at a much faster pace, than what I could ever do, when in auto or semi auto mode.
The auto ground balance on the GPZ, (although works well) in my opinion, is far to slow in adjusting to ground conditions (especially when moving through ground briskly, that is highly variable & constantly changing in mineralization), necessitating far more over lap of each swing of the coil, at a much slower, steadier swing speed.
It basically all depends on the intended movements of the operator. To better put it, if one intends on going low/slow at a tortoise pace, this will allow, the auto ground balance to constantly reach its full ground potential, hence auto, or in semi-auto mode is the way to go, but if one wants to cover ground more briskly, swinging the coil from/at all angles/elevations, then manual ground balance would have to be the best choice.
Whether in manual ground balance (or in auto ground balance), the ferite is a must do, but only upon initial start up, or when one changes gold modes, or goes from one gold mode to another.

Cheers Kon.  T25
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Post  davsgold Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:32 pm

norvic wrote:Righto, for a few years now I have been using my GPZ in manual ground balance with excellent results in both quiet ground and extremely noisy variable ground.

A warning if your into knocking things without trying, don`t read any further.

Very simply it is the same method many of us use/used with the PIs and before that with the Auto tracking VLFs. Simply set you Z to Manual ground balance, to ground balance press the QT button and pump your coil up and down over the ground as you do with any other detector, the QT is so quick on the Z only a couple of pumps are necessary. Detect away Qting whenever the ground varies, make sure you turn off notifications to ensure remove that pesky notification that will frustrate you. I don`t use the ferrite, although trying when they first were introduced by ML free to existing Z owners. I`m no Lone Ranger and suspect there are a lot out there who have been doing this on the quiet. Easy as...…….think outside the Square

G'day norvic

basically just like the gpx4500/5000 in fixed, press the button when necessary, pump coil and keep detecting.

you have found this works well on the GPZ 7000 and forget the ferrite, I know when I first got the GPZ 7000 from the day it was released, this is what I was doing and got told never to do it that way again. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Well guess what next time I am out I will try that again, because ever since I have used the ferrite, side to side figure 8 (using QT) then release (QT) and pump up and down, (this is of course in semi auto) GB.

I will go to manual GB (fixed) and try what your doing. Very Happy

cheers dave
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Post  norvic Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:45 am

Just a further tip for using Manual GB on the Z, it is perhaps much easier for us who have progressed from the VLF into the PI and now the DVT eras to use manual GB, simply because a lot of us used this technique with top results before. If you find no success adapting, persist by going back into your previous GB methods and back into manual GBing. It is difficult to compare methods by testing on buried targets, myself I very rarely bother, preferring to simply spend the time in the field searching for that elusive undug nugget, and then resisting the impatient urge to dig it up before trying a few different settings over the target, especially if it appears to be a deep target and not in a rubbish infected area. Settings we use on our detectors that have many options, as the Z has, are very individual choices, no one setting suits all.


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Post  Nightjar Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:58 pm

Very new to the Z Norvic, Davsgold saved my sanity with suggested settings earlier this year when using it for the first time.
Will definitely give your manual GB a run next season.
BTW After Daves saving settings we went on to dig 100+ tiddlers on an area we thought was flogged to death. 100+ = 65grams. Very Happy


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Post  norvic Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:39 pm

On ya Nightjar, the Zs a magic machine, not only because it can be customised by the user with many different settings, it is the first pioneer of DVT. I`m hoping like the SD2000 progressed through to the GPX5000, the Z will do the same. Anyway back to subject, and as you mention Davsgold, manual GB is magic on the Z + X coils not just the 2 standard ML coils, the 10" which although can be a noisy coil and not for everyone, is a top coil at conservative quiet settings but when cranked up and in Manual GB turns into tiddler magnet that will have you shaking your head at the depths it gets them at. But watch your sanity if you do so, even Dave wont save your sanity there.  Mad Tis bloody good fun but...……..

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Post  joe82 Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:05 pm

imheading out tomorrow and will give manual gb a lap but what is the notications you have to turn off and how?????? dumbass question I no Embarassed

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Post  norvic Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:50 pm

No dumb-A*s* question Joe82, I got pissed off with those time wasting notifications a fair while back and JP put me on track, initially I`d found the "off-switch" but then after an upgrade, it reset to them on and having a senior moment I`d forgotten how I`d originally done it. Go into Preferences in the Menu, you`ll see one marked Guides, just turn it off, it is on by default. Page 30 in data manual I have for the Z. Like any change one makes to settings Manual GB takes awhile to get the hang of, but it is worth it. Just a note it is not the be all nor end all of the settings one can set the Z to, is another mode that can get you more gold at times and just adds to our understanding of the power of the Z.
Have Fun
Vic

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Post  davsgold Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:54 pm

I set the 'User Button" to the ground balance in the menu selections, that way the little man symbol button lets you toggle between the Manual GB, or Semi Auto GB or Auto GB.

The user button is set to back light as default, you can only have one choice selected at a time in there, so I use the Ground balance choice and tick it

GPZ 7000 Manual Ground Balance User_b10

cheers dave
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Post  norvic Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:44 am

Same here I`ve found setting my user button to Ground balance allows for a quick change into whatever GB mode you wish to work in, and with guides off you don`t get that pesky notification on screen.

It seems that one cannot "attach" a image direct from PC. Is there a work around here that doesn`t require a URL?

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Post  davsgold Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:49 am

norvic wrote:Same here I`ve found setting my user button to Ground balance allows for a quick change into whatever GB mode you wish to work in, and with guides off you don`t get that pesky notification on screen.

It seems that one cannot "attach" a image direct from PC. Is there a work around here that doesn`t require a URL?

find the picture on you computer and use the host an image from the choices and then follow the prompts
GPZ 7000 Manual Ground Balance Post_a10

cheers dave
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Post  norvic Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:41 am

GPZ 7000 Manual Ground Balance 20191210


Right on, crikey easy as, Thanks Dave

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Post  davsgold Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:55 am

Laughing Like everything norvic, when you know how Very Happy the old GPZ 14 has had a good workout by the looks of it, that new 15x10 spiral x-coil looks very good beside it. I reckon it will be getting dirty soon as well Very Happy

cheers dave
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Post  gold-fever Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:31 pm

I have finally been able to get out detecting again recently and have a play before the day turns hotter than hell.
Just this morning I was fiddling around with the ground balance so this thread is a very timely and welcome read. I was having problems with the balance and for the first time I could not balance out the ferrite in any mode and even after tuning a few times and turning the machine off and on.
Am keen to get out tomorrow and try the suggestions in this thread. I am on a patch with `grains`of gold, always amazed at the tiny stuff the Z brings to light. I don`t care as long as it is the right colour.
Thanks for the info everyone.
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Post  hookey13 Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:49 pm

Am I understanding this correct. You do not do an auto balance or manual balance with ferrite at all. Kon61gold above also does manual ground balance but he says initially you must do ground balance with ferrite or when changing gold modes? Have I got that right?
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Post  Kon61gold Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:48 pm

Yep, you got that part right hookey. Once the initial 15 or so seconds of ground balance is done over the ground with & including the ferite, no need to re-ground balance with the ferite again. The GPZ 7000 stores the initial ferite/ground balancing procedure, less when going from the 14X13 inch coil, to the 19 inch coil, or the changing of coils will require a ferite ground balance again, straight after the detector is switched on & you've done a noise cancel, keeping any EMI tuned out to a minimum.
The only other time you will need to do an initial ground balance with the ferite again, is when ground conditions change dramatically or when going say from one gold field to another. The above apply to whether you are in auto, semi-auto, or manual mode, the difference being when in manual ground balance mode, more frequent ground balancing will be required every so often, in order to keep ground mineral noise, tracked out to a minimum, but not in conjunction with the ferite, just the ground.  

Cheers Kon.  T25
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Post  joe82 Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:49 am

is this a pump balance or a side to side balance in manual mode

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Post  davsgold Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:59 am

joe82 wrote:is this a pump balance or a side to side balance in manual mode

In manual GB mode there is no ground balance happening, you will need to go to semi auto GB or auto GB while doing the the ground balance (up and down) or ferrite (side to side) two different GB types.  Then when happy go back to manual GB.

Using the quick track button while in manual is effectively putting the detector into a fast GB mode and the longer you hold the quick track button it will loose the ferrite balance, I then would do the ferrite balance again.  Just a very quick momentarily squeeze of the quick track button in manual GB will do what your trying to achieve.  

cheers dave
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Post  Nightjar Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:08 am

davsgold wrote:
In manual GB mode there is no ground balance happening, you will need to go to semi auto GB or auto GB while doing the the ground balance (up and down) or ferrite (side to side) two different GB types.  Then when happy go back to manual GB.

Using the quick track button while in manual is effectively putting the detector into a fast GB mode and the longer you hold the quick track button it will loose the ferrite balance, I then would do the ferrite balance again.  Just a very quick momentarily squeeze of the quick track button in manual GB will do what your trying to achieve.  

cheers dave

Is it just me reading two slightly conflicting manual GB methods?
Earlier its mentioned that once the machine is balanced with the ferrite in either semi or auto then switched to manual a momentary squeeze of the quick track and a couple of pumps is enough to regain balance.
Now Dave you are saying that giving the quick track a squeeze will throw the balance out?
What am I missing?




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Post  davsgold Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:38 am

Hey Nightjar, the way I described to you when you first got your 7000 is what I would stick to doing until you are sure you can try the method that norvic is using in manual GB

I am still trying to get my head around using the 7000 in manual GB mode and the best way to achieve the GB while actually detecting in manual GB, for me right now it's a bit of trial and a lot of error Laughing

As you know I much prefer the semi auto GB set the ferrite balance and then the normal GB and basically go detecting and redo all this again if I change coils or change to totally different areas.

cheers dave
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Post  Jonathan Porter Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:27 pm

Nightjar wrote:Is it just me reading two slightly conflicting manual GB methods?
Earlier its mentioned that once the machine is balanced with the ferrite in either semi or auto then switched to manual a momentary squeeze  of the quick track and a couple of pumps is enough to regain balance.
Now Dave you are saying that giving the quick track a squeeze will throw the balance out?
What am I missing?

The moment you hit Quick-Trak in any mode the GPZ will also try to Ferrite balance, if the ferrite isn’t present but salt and saturation signals are then potentially your X balance will go right out of whack introducing more noise. In Semi-Auto mode the Ferrite balance is fixed but the detector continues to track the G balance (regular ground signal ). In Auto Mode the detector is actively tracking both the Ferrite balance (X signal) and the G balance (regular ground balance) but can become inaccurate in salty saturable soils.

By using Fixed the detector needs to be re-ground balanced manually either by hitting Quick-Trak and risking a bad X balance if the Ferrite isn’t present (not really a big issue with some X coils because they don’t all balance out the ferrite anyway) or you can go to Semi-Auto Mode and just pump the coil till quiet then go to Fixed again (this is the method I use in homogeneous ground). I preset my USER button to the Ground Balance Mode so it’s a one button press then side arrow to either Semi-Auto or Fixed, its a slower method than just hitting Quick-Trak but way more reliable performance wise.

Hope this helps
JP

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Post  davsgold Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:25 pm

Jonathan Porter wrote:

(not really a big issue with some X coils because they don’t all balance out the ferrite anyway)
JP

You never let a chance go by, you seem to, by reason unknown, want to cast doubt about X-Coils at every opportunity.

Get over it, are you going to cast doubt on the NF aftermarket coil for the 7000 for having to have a patch lead to run on the 7000 in a similar fashion to the x-coils, which you kept saying was unethical, and are ML dealers going to be able to stock the NF aftermarket coil in there shops, hmmm.
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Post  peterinaust Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:16 pm

Jonathan Porter wrote:
Nightjar wrote:Is it just me reading two slightly conflicting manual GB methods?
Earlier its mentioned that once the machine is balanced with the ferrite in either semi or auto then switched to manual a momentary squeeze  of the quick track and a couple of pumps is enough to regain balance.
Now Dave you are saying that giving the quick track a squeeze will throw the balance out?
What am I missing?

The moment you hit Quick-Trak in any mode the GPZ will also try to Ferrite balance, if the ferrite isn’t present but salt and saturation signals are then potentially your X balance will go right out of whack introducing more noise. In Semi-Auto mode the Ferrite balance is fixed but the detector continues to track the G balance (regular ground signal ). In Auto Mode the detector is actively tracking both the Ferrite balance (X signal) and the G balance (regular ground balance) but can become inaccurate in salty saturable soils.

By using Fixed the detector needs to be re-ground balanced manually either by hitting Quick-Trak and risking a bad X balance if the Ferrite isn’t present (not really a big issue with some X coils because they don’t all balance out the ferrite anyway) or you can go to Semi-Auto Mode and just pump the coil till quiet then go to Fixed again (this is the method I use in homogeneous ground). I preset my USER button to the Ground Balance Mode so it’s a one button press then side arrow to either Semi-Auto or Fixed, its a slower method  than just hitting Quick-Trak but way more reliable performance wise.

Hope this helps
JP

Thanks JP.

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Post  norvic Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:55 pm

hookey13 wrote:Am I understanding this correct. You do not do an auto balance or manual balance  with ferrite at all. Kon61gold above also does manual ground balance but he says initially you must do ground balance with ferrite or when changing gold modes? Have I got that right?

That is correct Kon61 stated he uses the ferrite, my method of Fixed GB does not require using the ferrite, does not require putting into any GB mode other then Fixed GB. Just pump a few times using the QT button same way many used the ML PIs that have auto tracking (and the auto GB VLFs). The GPZs auto GB is not as prone to cancel out deep quiet signals as the PIs or VLFs in tracking did, but I have found this method works in very hot variable ground tis the way I go as ground changes are noted quickly and we know that sudden ground changes are often a top indication that gold is near. Takes time, trial and error as Davsgold is finding, but once mastered is another powerful tool in the use of the GPZ and becomes a very easy to use tool/setting that I use most of the time.

I am not interested in debating my use of this method, or that I don`t use the ferrite, tis an individual method that works for me that I wish to share.


My apologies for being a bit slow in replying, tis that time of the year.

Vic

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Post  Kon61gold Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:59 pm

JP/Dave please, where not here to debate on what the X-Coils can or cannot do, but working together towards answering a question on ground balance procedure for the GPZ 7000 when first switched on & used with different gold modes, or various size/type coils.
When the GPZ 7000 were first introduced, there was no ferite. We ground balanced the detector over the ground we were ready to detect over & off we went. It certainly didn't stop anyone from finding gold. It were much later on that Minelab figured something more to add to the equation by introducing an extra bit of ground calibration through a certain size/type uniform in strength ferite, which added to the better working of the detector by calibrating out any unwanted feritic ground noise, caused by ground or sections of ground & or hot pockets of ironization.
JP, you are not wrong in what you say about the very early in development X-Coils , but the X-Coils now, have come a long way towards far better ground balancing over the ferite, than what some of the first coils introduced could achieve. Even with the very first 18 inch round & or 10X9 inch elliptical DD coils, of which (& due to the higher sensitivity of those coils) you couldn't get to fully ground balance the ferite out, were still capable of finding small, sub gram or multi-gram gold, at greater depths than what the original Minelab 14X13 or 19 inch coil could do.
Now & like Norvic says, personal preference towards how you wish to run your detector or what you believe best works for you, over a particular section of ground in way of results, I to am neither in a position to debate, for each person has their preferences.
One thing I do know though, is that each goldfield is somewhat different to the next & it is the ground type that determines settings of when & what best  to use over it. In other words, I let the ground do the talking & adjust all detector/coil variables to suit.  
Anyways, just to be on the safe side of things and even though most likely, not necessary to reground balance your detector, (if switching on/searching over the same section of ground the following day) one has everything to gain & nothing to lose by re-ground balancing with the ferite, upon each initial switch on/start up procedure, making sure everything is on par & working well.
BTW & although the Minelab GPZ 7000 is the best detector for gold prospecting today, it is far from perfect & there have been more than one electronic/board issue associated with it in the past, well before the introduction & or use, of any after market coils made for it, but even that too, is to be expected, till most/all on field problems/issues prospectors happen to face, are sorted out over time.

Cheers gents, Kon  T25
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Post  Nightjar Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:25 pm

davsgold wrote:Hey Nightjar, the way I described to you when you first got your 7000 is what I would stick to doing until you are sure you can try the method that norvic is using in manual GB

I am still trying to get my head around using the 7000 in manual GB mode and the best way to achieve the GB while actually detecting in manual GB, for me right now it's a bit of trial and a lot of error Laughing

As you know I much prefer the semi auto GB set the ferrite balance and then the normal GB and basically go detecting and redo all this again if I change coils or change to totally different areas.

cheers dave

Thank you Dave,
You saved my sanity during my first trip with the 7000 and yes the only tried and proven method so far is the "semi" but I like Norvics lean away from the norm and will work on that this coming season.
**My mind often flicks back to my 10 year association with the SD2100 + mono and prospectors I met who said, "it can't be done on this ground", Q03 but it could.** V09 V11 V18 V36 Burning Marshmellow


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Post  norvic Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:59 am

Hey Nightjar, not to me nor I suspect to many others, manual GBing with the GPZ is tried and proven. As Kon61 has posted gold fields are different but after detecting this goldfield island of ours for 40 plus years, I`ve not found a goldfield I haven`t been able to use Manual GBing on whether with the GPZ, auto tracking Pis or VLFs.

To illustrate manual GBing, the SDC as we know is basically a turn on and go PI, doesn`t have the settings adjustments the GPZ has. With the SDC and 11"Coiltek alongside the GPZ with a 10"X coil, the SDC set to max, the GPZ + 10X set to 8 sensitivity, difficult/HY, autoGB and both run over an extremely variable patch, I could not differentiate both in ease of use and performance, they both scored gold. However upping the GPZ to 20 sensitivity manual GB, more tiny and deeper gold was got. Was noisy as but workable because it produced. Talking about the SDC I probably have the only lightweight KISS (although agricultural) SDC in existence, but that`s for another thread once I getroundtoit.

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Post  Jonathan Porter Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:47 pm

davsgold wrote:You never let a chance go by, you seem to, by reason unknown, want to cast doubt about X-Coils at every opportunity.

Get over it, are you going to cast doubt on the NF aftermarket coil for the 7000 for having to have a patch lead to run on the 7000 in a similar fashion to the x-coils,  which you kept saying was unethical, and are ML dealers going to be able to stock the NF aftermarket coil in there shops, hmmm.

X coils are a hot topic at the moment and justify comment even if it goes against the trend, if a NF coil was doing the same I would be complaining long and loud about them too.

In simple scientific terms, if the coil makes a noise on the ferrite no matter how much you hold the Quick-Trak button in then that means it would also logically suggest that if there is any X signal in some of the iron rich rocks on the surface or make up of the soils then there will be some noise introduced to the audio from that as well. This was borne out this morning when I used my 17x12 X coil, I could clearly here the X ghost signal responses breaking through to the audio, this was on ground I had only just gone over with a coil that makes no ferrite response, so the signals were definitely coming from X signal in the ground pure and simple. I was also getting constant subtle signals off iron rich rocks that caused me to try and investigate if there was actually a signal present, this is both time consuming and also annoying, you either chase them or ignore them running the risk of missing gold.

Getting back to the subject at hand, Norvic is an old hand who has earn his stripes in the VLF days, I came in at the tale end but he was there in the glory days. The advantage of using Fixed is because thats the best mode on the GPZ to get MAX depth, plain and simple. The key is to keep on top of the ground balance and make sure its as close to accurate as possible at all times. In some ground where the GB is all over the place a ZVT machine needs some sort of slow tracking because interchanges between ground types and GB states can make target like signals, this can often be evidenced on areas where water has piled up against an obstacle leaving behind tiny little magnetic pebbles ect, often they create a quite large signal, if a nugget is hiding there (and they often are) they could be masked by the out of GB signal.

The proto GPZ machines I first used had the GB and Ferrite balance seperate from each other, I had no auto ground tracking so could only used fixed with a Quick-Trak button to adjust GB, it was brilliant and I moaned out loud when they incorporated the two together on the final product effectively killing the ability to quickly get the GB correct and move on without interfering with the X balance. Norvic is also used to running his machine hot, this also is probably a carry over from his VLF days were he had to listen through all sorts of horrible noises to find gold in his areas as such it makes perfect sense he use FIXED.

Perspective about X signal: X signal is everywhere in varying degrees, as such no matter what the ground looks like X can be present. The Ferrite suppled with the GPZ is actually a pretty weak ferrite so unless the GPZ14 coil is scrubbed after a ferrite balance there is usually not much signal, however if there is quite a bit of signal as is the case with my newest X coil then that will mean there will be some signal coming from X in the ground. But its not the end of the world because regular ground noise, EMI ect can easily mask the little bit of signal response created by this situation. Today was a good example where I easily found 3 tiny pieces with the 17 x 12 X coil in only a matter of minutes which is impressive because they were small and their responses LOUD. There is no denying these Spiral wound X coils have plenty of sensitivity, but the trade off is I cannot balance out the Ferrite, I get a bit of touch sensitivity in High Yield Difficult (General Difficult is unusable unless the ground is bare) and there is a fair bit of saturation signal if I couple the coil to the ground (as expected from a spiral wound coil).  I run my settings conservatively (I’m not as hairy chested as Norvic), so Sensitivity 9, Semi Auto GB, Threshold Pitch 40, Audio Smoothing OFF, Ground Smoothing OFF. If the X balance is out then the regular G balance will go someway to try and compensate for it. So in perspective the X coils are a heck of a lot better than the good old days using VLF detectors and if you run your detector HOT with Fixed GB then most of the X signal will be masked anyway.

Lastly, Dave I’m more than happy to do a video of my very recent manufactured 17x12 Spiral wound X coil not ferrite balancing and also the touch sensitivity and saturation noise. I can live with saturation because that just comes down to good coil control unless you bulldoze the ground, touch sensitivity is OK in High Yield Difficult which will be my go to mode with this coil anyway but its impossible to use in General Difficult, the X balance issue is manageable but annoying to say the least, but I’m lucky because at least I’m fortunate enough to know what it is I’m hearing and how to deal with it.

JP
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GPZ 7000 Manual Ground Balance Empty Re: GPZ 7000 Manual Ground Balance

Post  davsgold Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:01 pm

It's good to have a bet each way
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