Is A YabbyPump A Dredge.

On the 30/12/18 I sent an Email to the Dept Of Earth Resources Of Victoria asking whether Yabby Pumps are a legal gold fossicking tool and is it considered to be a dredge where gold fossicking is concerned?
I also asked for a clear definition of the term "Mechanical" and "Hand Tools", "Dredge", "Power driven" and Machine in regards to the Victorian gold fossicking "Miners Right" rules and regulations..
I said that there is  confusion among the holders of a  Victorian Miners Right in regards to these terms and that they are not defined in the regulations.

To date I have not received a reply. Gee! I wonder why??.

I wouldn't mind 10 grand for every time I have asked that question  over the past 60 years and received no reply.

So in the mean time while waiting for a meaningful reply I will consider a Yabby pump to be a Yabby pump and if it happens to suck up a bit of gold with the yabbies then that is great..... AAARGH blimey! Ang on a minute; maybe it is not even legal to catch yabbies with it.

The way I see it, anything but a form of dredge Adrian. Yabby Pumps, are neither powered by combustible fuel or electrically driven. It's just a hand operated suction pump, which cannot be proven else-wise in a court of law, as breaking any of the laws of prospecting for precious minerals. You put them in an awkward catch 22 position, for them to answer you directly, for if they say no it is not a self powered/propelled mechanical dredge, means they give all & everyone the right to use them, where ever it is legal for them to be used & that's not exactly in their interest to do so, concerning the environment. If they say its similar to a working dredge, then you'll say, then show me the petrol powered motor or electric motor that drives it, for both are considered illegal, less they are hand operated tools?
Anybody else want to shed some more insight on this matter?

Cheers Kon.

Ahhh a  bit of drainpipe , , a tennis  ball and a stick  , what a superb bit of kit , it  can transform  your  panning ,  Ive been  using one , actually several  for many years , and in a land of  legislation  ,  its very nice to  have clear and distinct laws, but sometimes its just good that no one is  enforcing some , maybe  just  quietly get on with it  ?

I like your legislation Mogy. It is pretty much the legislation that I have been working to most of my gold prospecting/fossicking life.

Adrian,
Another reason they haven't answered is Australia shuts down for January and goes down to the beach or river.
Staples

AARGH Geeees yeah I forgot about that....That reminds me; I donot see many of these on the roads these days.    Or maybe it is just that I don't go anywhere  now that I iz old.  ... Anyway Mogy in WA put me on the right track.

Just yez wait till I gits me new second knee this year. I will really be able ta give those Miners Rights rule n regs a run fer their money.
     The most used hand operated tools that I have ever used during my prospecting years are A Small miners spade, ( I iz not a small miner   ), Geo pick, Pry bar, Pan, Yabby Pump N Gold Spear with the pan n spade copping the most use. OK OK I had a fold up sluice but without the spade the sluice is a bit awky ta use.

I put this question to a local ranger in Bendigo a few years back. And his reply was it is a mechanical device because it has moving parts. Even though it is hand operated and suck up gravels and such like a dredge pump, even though it is hand operated. My reply was it is a hand tool and only hand held tools can only be used under Mines Right. He told me,you can use it in creeks to look for yabbies & worms but not for gold. But he did say he personally would not charge anyone for using one as it would be to hard to fight in court and to costly. Because under the Miners Right it does not stipulate exactly what the meaning of the word "Mechanical Tool" really is, except dredges. In other words a yabbie pump can be classified as either a Mechanical Tool or a Hand Held tool as it does not stipulate exactly the meaning of the word Mechanical. (A mechanical tool is a tool with moving parts that can operate or run without hand movement like a petrol driven dredge) Here in Victoria you can use a petrol or electric operated water pumps to help in the aid of processing gravels to extract minerals. Like on a High Banker. But you can not use a water pump to suck up gravels, only water. In NSW they have banned water pumps all together in the aid process of washing your hand obtained or extracted minerals. They have classified it as a mechanical aid, or a mechanical operated tool. And as such not allowed in the extraction or processing of minerals.This has now stuffed up a lot of people who use High Bankers in NSW.  But a farmer can use that exact same pump to suck water from a creek to a dam and not be classified as a aid to extract water. NSW is also trying to ban river sluices as well. They say using them can muddy up the river when processing your gravels. The same with High Bankers. I hope that law does not come in here as it will stuff up a lot of people in Victoria. I'm hoping there may be someone on the site from NSW who may be able to shed more light on the NSW laws on this subject, as l think there is a push to try and change the law back again.
wombat

The problem with the Rangers reply is that it is only his interpretation of the regs and that will not hold up in a law court.
The regulations are ill defined and can be interpreted in many different ways.
A farmer can draw water up out of a dam using mechanical and power driven pumps but not from a creek or river if he is looking for gold.
If I have a dam on my property that has gold in it and I draw the water out and run the recovered water and sludge through a sluice back into the dam.
What is the difference? The difference is in the mentality state of the turkeys creating the laws.
The human mind can be made to think/believe anything and everything is either right or wrong, it just depends on what it has been programmed to believe.

A man can be an honest and law abiding citizen who is compassionate and friendly to all and would not so much as step on an ant, but he can conscripted into the army and turned into a killing machine that will without hesitation blow another man,s brains out.

An environmentalist or a Greenie can be programmed to believe every bloke with a metal detector or who gold prospects is an horrific enemy of the world who is hell bent on destroying the planet and all life,s little creatures even when said gold hunter causes zero or microscopic harm to anything.

A police officer is programmed to uphold the law no matter what stands in his way. He follows his programming and finds it almost impossible to think or act in any other way that goes against his programming.

We all behave and act in accordance to our cultural schooling and beliefs from the day we a re born. Some cultural beliefs are abhorrent in the eyes of a different culture. What makes a particular law right and just in one persons mind can be made to be seen as utterly wrong and unjust to another mind.

So who can say what is truly right or wrong?
Most of our laws in Australia are built upon Christian beliefs that we brought with us when we entered this country and if the majority of the population are happy with those laws then those are the laws we live by.

Of course we have to have people to enforce those laws and then human nature being what it is, some of those enforcers will get a bit power hungry and will change a few laws to suit themselves and their followers and that is when we begin to have problems with the Greens, environmentalists and Prospectors.

Pretty spot on Adrian. I remember years ago dredging in East Gippsland, the fish had a great time feasting on organisms that were sucked up and went over the sluice box. And if you walked down stream about a half a kilometer, the water had cleared, and showed no sign of any disturbance upstream.
During the occasional flood, that same stream was muddy all the way to the sea, and erosion took place along its entire length.
Bureaucrats. What a bunch of self opinionated drongos. No practical experience, just shiny bums from sitting behind a desk.

Adrian, there's good & bad in all of us, within every occupation. A jury can pronounce the verdict, but the judge has the power to enforce a sentence to the full effects of the law, or show leniency. Same with each individual who holds a position of authority.
Not all laws governing a state/country are perfect, some far from it & might need amending, but I dread to wonder, what our existence would be like without law & order.
As for the bureaucrats/fat cats running the worlds nations Reg, what's that favourite word or saying they tend to often use, when cornered for the truth? Ahh yes that's right  "No Comment"  

Cheers Kon.

Be cautious when writing to government agencies.

If pushed to make a determination, they'll routinely add wording to the Fossicking Act to ban something by name if they only understand it vaguely.  What is permitted right now won't likely be permitted 10 years from now. Defining an offense or legislating one makes it prosecutable. Defining the legality of a product would normally not be an issue in any recognized hobby but in the case of prospecting it could be devastating.

By definition and legislation, Highbankers were legal until a certain person wrote to "DEMAND" a written ruling on "whether Highbankers were lawful or not" to elements of the Government related to State Forestry.  The same person also demanded that Dredging be permitted.  The Mining Department had already defined them as "permitted within the hobby" as long as "water but not gravel was pumped to the sluice".  Unfortunately, by way of reaction, the "push that came to shove" resulted in a backlash.  The backlash came in the form of a redefining in the Fossicking Act of NSW.

And here we are now with Highbankers with Water Pumps being 'expressly prohibited by definition'.  You won't even find much reference to anything permissible other than a gold pan, a shovel/pick and a metal detector these days. Even the cubic volume of soil that can be moved or dug from a hole in any 24 hour perior is "defined".

I've spoken in person to the senior staff at NSW State Forests a few years ago.... and they told me they disliked even taking phone calls from Prospectors these days.  I asked why and they said they were constantly being contacted by prospectors demanding to know what the rules were concerning sluices.  The prospectors were inspired to contact them after bickering online as to what is and what is not legal.  As a result, rather than beat their head against a wall (EVEN though they agreed with me that the wording from Dept of Mining made it clear such equipment was acceptable), they chose to rewrite the rules.  Presumably this was to get back at the prospectors sending them endless abusive calls and letters.  I was told they simply ban things if it's too much trouble for them to deal with.

I can recall having an argument with a prospector at the local prospecting club who was trying to insist that Yabbie Pumps were "banned".  They are not. A Yabbie Pump is most definitely HAND OPERATED.  In fact it can only be used in this very manner.  It can't function by itself.  It contains no batteries.  Moving parts don't make something a machine. A level of Automation does.  It's a hand tool so yes it's obviously perfectly legal and permitted within the hobby.  It does not operate automatically, nor does it contain a motor that would define it as a machine. The Fossicking Act (at least by definition the last time I read it) stated that only "hand operated tools" are permitted.  Machines (other than metal detectors) were not. Anyone claiming a Yabbie Pump is a machine ought to look at a Spanner.  A spanner has moving parts but it's no more a machine than a Yabbie Pump. A Yabbie Pump is simply a 'crevicing tool'. Throw it on the ground and it does nothing. Pick it up and it's instantly a hand operated tool. Moving parts on a "bendable drinking straw" don't make it a machine, nor do the arms on my sunglasses.

The key words in the legislation at the moment are "Significant Turbidity".  This is a loosely defined term that can apply to anyone "muddying water" with any method and it currently is used in conjunction with Sluices (River Sluices with no pumps).  Go digging in the creek with a shovel and you might "muddy up the waters". This means you are creating Turbidity.   Try shoveling dirt into your river sluice and the same occurs.  If you muddy the waters you can be accused of an offense. How much turbidity is "significant" Turbidity?  It's a very loose term with no clear definition as to what is "significant". But river sluices are still kind of ignored.  The confusion remaining over Highbankers means people think all sluices are 'banned' (they're not, just 'powered' Highbankers).  Perhaps this is the level of confusion they wish to sow.

But be wary of demanding things from people in positions of legislative power. It would be better to have NO further definition in place for cases to be made against people.  Without definitions enshrined in legislation, it's impossible to be prosecuted. You're not going to get anything good out of Government departments devoted to themselves instead of the public.

Well written Nero
wombat

"Let sleeping dogs lie". and make sure they are on a short tethered leash.

In the 1970's mate and self were using a Keene 4" dredge in the Turon around Sofala and all the small creeks around Trunkey south of Bathurst.
The best gold from the Turon was in rock gutters leading away from the main river, we had the sluice/pump set up on the bank below the gutter so we could dredge in clear water. The outflow from the sluice ran back into the river and as RW comments earlier we often had several fish (mainly trout) swirling around in the sluice runoff sucking up worms/grubs.

We were by no means the only ones dredging that part of the river but there was never any noticeable discoloration in the water.

The rock formation of the Turon/Macquarie river bed made it one giant riffle bed, beginning to end. One can only imagine the scene of those dozens of banjo's and cradles in use during the early days.

I wonder what the reaction would be to a minerals exploration licence application taken over that region. I notice an application for a large number of Grat. Blocks exploring for minerals/gemstones in my local area which I am certain will be granted. The work will include work in rivers and creek systems.
Is it one set of regulations for "them" and another for "us"?
mike

I would say yes to that.
Clearly those exploration licenses and large mining leases that generate high revenue in the form of taxes of one form or another for the Government and employ many workers and and that result in the sale and manufacture of large scale industrial equipment in the form of excavators, diggers, drag lines and many other advanced  and constantly improving  machinery and automatic control systems, will be granted the necessary licenses to be able to operate in preference to a one or two man operation.
It is amazing what rules and regulations are ignored or modified to enable large scale operations to function.
Money talks where shares, dividends and profits and banks are concerned......The local Gov has to get a good cut or it will be a no go.

I am not an anti environmentalist but see it as rather ironic with all the concern about the odd fossicker muddying the waters if he is using a small dredge and then you look at the total stuff up with mismanagement of the Murray River, millions of fish dying and supposition that it could take years to recover. And at the heart of the issue is the reality that big organizations such as cotton farmers can take off huge amounts of water that had previously gone into riverways and bugger those down river and the environment. As long as fees are paid and profit comes out the big end then that kind of process often proceeds without hindrance but heaven help the lone fossicker who is caught pumping a few gallons of water.

And then look at the massive ripping up of the earth with the huge mining operations across the country but watch out if a fossicker strays onto a patch of earth that is leased by a huge multinational.

harryopal, you've summed it up pretty well mate. Now look at the corrupt politicians get all defensive and go on the attack. We should not be growing cotton or rice in this country.

Geographical and climatic features

Australia is the smallest of the world's continents. It is also the lowest, the flattest and (apart from Antarctica) the driest.
    So why do we waste our water growing two of the most water hungry crops on the planet. We do-not need rice and we can import cheap cotton products from India And China.

Answer:
Because greedy P***ks want to make lots of money and they don't care how they do it. They are happy to sacrifice  people, farms, animals, fish, other bush  animals and seem content to allow our rivers to run dry, so long as they can get water for their crops.

Spot on Adrian. Could not have put it better myself.

I am not sure what exactly is happening to Australia but it is nothing like the Australia I grew up in and even by the age of twenty five the changes were becoming evident.
Patriotism was drifting out the window, people were becoming very materialistic and the "Fair Go To Everybody" was being replaced with "Stuff You Jack I'm  all right".
It is clear that we have now inherited a lot of Euro and Asian ignorance and have /are developing a nasty side to our once cheerful characteristics.

Our kids know nothing of our true history that, lets face it, goes back several hundred thousand years and encompasses massive intellectual advancement in cultural beliefs and teachings that cover almost every land on this earth.

I think I can see where we are headed and I am glad that I won't be here to see this country suffocate and die through over population just like all of the other drop kick countries where the people don't know when to stop breeding. Even when they and all their kids are starving to death, they still continue to breed and plead to the rest of the world to feed them when soon if we keep on spooning out food and support to other countries while bringing in vast numbers of immigrants that will need more water, more food, more hospitals more electricity, more housing, more welfare payments, we will not be able to feed ourselves.
You think it is an exaggeration? Don't kid yourselves, extinction events can take very little time to occur.

Adrian, you are approaching dangerous territory, for we all know where the encouragement to breed comes from.

Well I am not sure Reg.
The way our Governments are running this country there seems to be a very clear attempt to discourage  breeding here.
We cannot afford a house, Both parents have to work in order to keep food on the table which means that we have to place our kids in child care centres that we cannot afford to do. Now there is a push to get us all living in units and flats that are close to our work. But wait; now these units are popping up throuout the suburbs. This is great if you own  Real Estate company or are a bank or have some form of financial interest in property development.

Whichever way you look at it, we cannot afford to have kids any more. So now the Govs are importing child producers who will pump out kids even when they cannot feed them. They do it in their own countries and they will do it here.

See where talking about Yabby pumps can lead to??

Ancient superstitions encourage breeding. It all dates back to early times when the leaders of those beliefs extorted the population to breed in order to out populate their enemies, and they are still doing it.
Soon we won't have enough yabbies to feed them all. (there's still plenty in my dam)

I just wanted to regurgitate this topic to clarify the use of a yabby / bait pump in the creek to extract dirt to pan or sluice
gold .
From what i see ,you are not allowed to use one under the Fisheries and Wildlife Act for the purpose of digging . I assume you may have to have a fishing licence to use one in a waterway ,but only to suck bait from the ground or move water .Any thoughts ?

Soldier of Fortune.

By that definition, at least in Victoria, it is not classified as a dredge, but it still cannot be legally used to move dirt for prospecting.
This is a new entry as I have never seen it before in the regulations. It has possibly been included in response to questions raised about their use for gold recovery in rivers and streams.
To use one you will require a Victorian Fishing licence unless you are exempt, such as being a pensioner, senior card holder or if the legislation has become law, identify as aboriginal.
When you're out detecting or panning watch out for the Lady Double Dealer.

Regards Axtyr.

Thanks, Axtyr. There is so much confusion on the interpretation of what a bait pump is classified as and so many differing opinions on the legalities of using one.  I have read a lot of arguments  about this subject  , so i  think this clears it up.  
Always pays to  do the right thing and know the laws before venturing out.

Never mind the yabbys just give me the gold dundiggin

Kon61gold wrote:Adrian, there's good & bad in all of us, within every occupation. A jury can pronounce the verdict, but the judge has the power to enforce a sentence to the full effects of the law, or show leniency. Same with each individual who holds a position of authority.
Not all laws governing a state/country are perfect, some far from it & might need amending, but I dread to wonder, what our existence would be like without law & order.
As for the bureaucrats/fat cats running the worlds nations Reg, what's that favourite word or saying they tend to often use, when cornered for the truth? Ahh yes that's right  "No Comment"  

Cheers Kon.

Life without law and order?
    I guess a long time ago there was no right or wrong because there was no laws and for hundreds of thousands of years  we just did whatever was necessary to survive; Then along came the fruit of the tree of knowledge, knowledge of right and wrong, or in other words the introduction of laws. At some point a pushy person decided that he/she did not like certain aspects of human behaviour and in a very crafty manner went about introducing a form of control over people that has ended up with us not being allowed to use a bloody yabby pump. .....Not so much because it causes damage to our water ways, which is laughable, but because it fits the description of being a mechanical device. ...I think you would be hard pressed to find something/a tool that is not a mechanical device when out prospecting.

I have never to my knowledge used a bait pump as a digging tool but then again if you stuff the nozzle into the sand and retrieve sand worms, is that digging or sucking or dredging.        
https://lpsa.swarthmore.edu/Systems/MechTranslating/TransMechSysElem.html

I always say to people who complain about police and other laws,imagine society without any 
Yes you could use a yabby pump but at the same time get shot in the back have your car and equipment stolen without any repercussions.
I think deadwood comes to mind.
forget the yabby pump



warning a little bit of colorful language spoken.

cheers  moredeep

Never watched it,but might ,now. Thanks, Moredeep.
The old days were not just about head down ,bum up looking for your fortune. I have dug deep into Trove and found many stories of murder , theft , deceit and crime from the diggings. Even to the point where gold was embedded in bricks and the bricks pinched out of house walls by thieves . I think it was a matter of trust no - one and keep looking over your shoulder.