Re: Trespassers should be........

granite2 Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:53 pm

Its a strange thing that most recreational prospectors are quite happy to share the dirt, and its gold with each other. They quite happily detect away in sight of their fellows without raising and problems. But others want to place imaginary bounderies in the air and declare all inside those bounderies as theirs and theirs alone. If one, by accident or design should stray within those imaginary bounderies they are quickly told:

A the gold police are on their way. B get going or I'll put a bullet in you. C I'll sool my dogs onto you and while they are tearing you limb from limb I'll just shoot your tires out. D. subjected to foul abuse and at the same time be threatened with all the above.

Recreational prospectors are mostly, but not all, peaceable folk who just want to detect and camp out in the bush for a few months. If they can find enough gold to cover their expences they are quite happy.

By the same token not all leaseholders are violent abusive sods who don't tolerate trespassing onto their bit of soveriegn dirt. Dave from darwin being one who should be applauded.

We all own Australia and we should all be able to get on with doing what we love without resorting to a level not even animals fall to. Most recreational prospectors try to do the right thing but if they stray by accident onto someones so called private bit of Australia then they should be treated like a human being not some depraved mongrel who is intent on stealing a few grams of gold.

Cheers, Jim

Guest Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:35 pm

HERE, HERE and I CONCUR.

maka Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:20 pm

granite2 wrote:
By the same token not all leaseholders are violent abusive sods who don't tolerate trespassing onto their bit of soveriegn dirt. Dave from darwin being one who should be applauded.

Cheers, Jim

Look at prospecting like collecting wild fruit and berries... Its awsome to get a feed from nature aimlessly wondering around the bush, But its a different story to jump a farmers fence and pinch his strawberries from a farmers paddock...
He leased or bought the land, bought plant stock, watered, sprayed etc did all the hard yards and took all the financial risk.
Jump someones gold lease////// they did the research, found the spot, bought the machinery, etc.. They took the risk... Dont take the risk jumping their fence.....
Your there for pleasure and fun. They are there to feed their family. ..
Do it properly, with permission, buy your own patch, or cop the consequences... Dont winge when you get what you deserve...

granite2 Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:59 pm

If you put up the money for a lease and then don't work it you shouldn't have it. End of story.

Scotty Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:05 pm

SHOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

granite2 Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:13 pm

I didn't get what I deserved, it was only small gold. Wink

I deserved a ten ouncer at least. Very Happy

Jim

maka Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:21 pm

granite2 wrote:If you put up the money for a lease and then don't work it you shouldn't have it. End of story.

So if you bought a lease, and kept it for your retirement or holidays. then you turn up and bulldozers or prospectors have cleaned it out, you wouldnt care?
Nice to know, pls let me know if you ever buy one and the location..
So if i buy a GT Falcon, sit it in my garage and dont drive it, keep it for later down the track... I wouldnt care if someone stole the hubcaps, wheels, engine, but left the chassis?
P.S I would never waste my money on fords..
They may not work the lease during summer, or winter due to temps.. Is it ok to fence jump when they arent there because you can tolerate the temps??
Now i know why some doors i knock on, i get abusive responses from the owners... People have ruined it long before i ever had a chance due to lack of respect, common decency or morals...

I am looking at outlaying a lot of money on a gold prospecting camp ground.. Gonna have to release the hounds at night to keep the tresspassers off, so those who are decent enough to do it properly and pay a few bob, and keep the place open, get a few shiney nugs to take home....
If i go on holidays, ( which will never happen) is it ok to come in and start digging, when i have outlayed everything i own to get this thing going?
Maybe i should leave an honesty box at the front gate... I know they work so well...... Mad

I like the way some people thing, it really opens my eyes up... not just this topic but in general forums and life aswell..

granite2 Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:27 pm

I reiterate: If you put up the money for a lease and then don't work it you shouldn't have it. End of story. Sad

And your similies do not relate to the topic at hand:)

Guest Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:31 pm

There was or still is a clause somewhere in the mining acts that state that a lease holder must produce evidence that he is working the lease for a particular number of days per year in order for the lease to remain current. By working I think it means prospecting, mining, surveying etc...... Or am I out of date??

maka Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:37 pm

I have 2 x50 inch plasmas that i dont watch, I watch everything on my pc... Guess i am not using them, i wouldnt care if you stole them....
Also have a gun that i dont use... Steal my plasmas and i might use it...Ask to borrow a plasma?,, No probs..
Laughing

<<<< 2 smiley faces...

granite2 Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:40 pm

Adrian, you are quite correct. The lease holder must fill out the expenses form (commonly called "The Lie Sheet") and submit it every year at least. Lease holders will tell you straight to your face with their hands over their hearts that they never lie on these sheets and they have a god given right to tie up thousands of acres for years on end. Land that you and me aren't allowed to put a foot on. Evil or Very Mad

I reckon we should go back to the days when a lease, or claim, was half an acre and if you didn't work it in any seven day period you forfeited it. Works for me! Wink

I might add, I also beleive actors should be paid like in the days of Shakespear. If they were entertaining you threw pennies onto the stage, if not you threw rotten fruit. Razz

Jim

Guest Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:41 pm

maka wrote:I have 2 x50 inch plasmas that i dont watch, I watch everything on my pc... Guess i am not using them, i wouldnt care if you stole them....
Also have a gun that i dont use... Steal my plasmas and i might use it...Ask to borrow a plasma?,, No probs..
<<<< 2 smiley faces...

in law you would only get away with that if i was armed with a gun as well!! Very Happy

< 3 smileys

Guest Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:01 pm

granite2 wrote:Adrian, you are quite correct. The lease holder must fill out the expenses form (commonly called "The Lie Sheet") and submit it every year at least. Lease holders will tell you straight to your face with their hands over their hearts that they never lie on these sheets and they have a god given right to tie up thousands of acres for years on end. Land that you and me aren't allowed to put a foot on.

I reckon we should go back to the days when a lease, or claim, was half an acre and if you didn't work it in any seven day period you forfeited it. Works for me!

I might add, I also beleive actors should be paid like in the days of Shakespear. If they were entertaining you threw pennies onto the stage, if not you threw rotten fruit.

Jim

Well I do sort of agree with you mate because Australia istotally covered in prospecting leases of one kind or another that have not had spade within a bulls roar of them in decades.
Here is a small bit of info:
http://www.austlii.com/au/legis/wa/consol_act/ma197881/s45.html

N here is a lot more.
http://www.austlii.com/au/legis/wa/consol_act/ma197881/

maka Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:04 pm

lol, I see your 3 smileys and raise you one..
Laughing

I admit thousands of acres shouldnt be held up by big companies.But if they dont hold the ground, the economy , jobs, etc goes up in smoke..
Imagine if the superpit was closed because it had no more gold, and they didnt have property tied up elsewhere to dig as a back up plan..kalgoorlie would be the next ghost town.
I see why they do it, but they need to leave a few thousand acres for us to play on...
I have also heard of people whom camp out overnight waiting for leases to be renewed.. if mining companies dont renew, they claim them... then the company has to buy their own lease back off them..

If only the admin staff of the superpit would have a bad day, and forget to renew the lease...I am sure there would be a pretty penny in that,,, or you could just walk around the massive hole swinging the 5000..LMAO...

Guest Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:14 pm

Heck, ya beat to the bit about waiting to pounce on lease expire dates. Ya gotta be quick but it can be done Wink

ichi-ban Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:53 pm

granite2 wrote:I reiterate: If you put up the money for a lease and then don't work it you shouldn't have it. End of story.

And your similies do not relate to the topic at hand:)

Granite, please can you define "working it" for the benefit of us all. I have 6 leases, all at various stages of government and aboroginal red tape. One is ready to go - i.e. be bulldozed. I'm not allowed by law on my "Programme of Works", that I must lodge with the DMP in Perth, to have more than 2 hectares at a time "open", PLUS no more than 5 hectares on my POW at any one time. I have to backfill often. When this lease has been worked as above, I have to move to the next one, whilst I apply for an extension of tonnage and land on the first one. So whilst I'm away working the second one, you (for example) come along and steal the gold that may still be on my first lease - that I'm still paying rent for at $440.00 per year, having paid $5000.00 for an aboroginal heritage survey, a $40,000.00 bulldozer, fuel costs, float costs at $150.00 an hour etc, etc. you call that fair?? I'm not a mining company, but I do spend months negotiating deals with those companies that are amenable to prospectors. I spend hours on the 'net and the phone talking to the Mines Dept about legal issues and scouring WA for ground to peg. It's hard yakka. I do this for a living, even though I'm retired from a "regular job". My money is on the line here and a lot of it. So far I'm up for about $138,000.00 in outlay and it's gonna get a lot bigger than that if the 'dozer breaks down. I wonder how you'd feel if I was break in to your house, steal your stuff and walk away saying, "No probs mate, this is Australia and this stuff here belongs to all Australians". Granite, it's my lease and therefore it's my gold. Similarly, it's your house and your TV, fridge, lounge suite, bed, carpets, cars, workshop, tools, detectors, caravan etc,etc. I wonder how loud you'd scream if it was all stolen. House, mining lease,,,,,,,,,,,It's no different and I wouldn't dream of stealing anything from anybody. So stay off people's leases please - whether they are on site or not. Thank you

granite2 Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:25 pm

We are not interested in breaking into your "Lease" and stealing your bulldozer and other machinery so why should you be mentioning breaking into my house?

And if it is so costly and time consuming to make a go of it as a small miner then why bother??? After all you are only helping to keep the fuel companies going, pushing more carbon into the air, paying the saleries of machinery salesmen etc,etc,etc.

Just get a job then go and buy a minelab GPSX5000 and join the multitude of frustrated recreational prospectors out there.

And I'm not saying that what you are doing is wrong I'm simply saying that recreational prospectors should be given more access to OUR land that is tied up with REAL ESTATE type leases that have NEVER been worked by the leasholder and that are never GOING to be worked by the leaseholder. And while these REAL ESTATE leaseholders are tying the ground up and denying us access to OUR land - land that is owned by all Australians we can be prosocuted for detecting that land. Is that RIGHT? It might be legal but is it MORALY RIGHT?

As for the big companies, they have every right to keep OTHER COMPANIES off their EL while they explore it and line it up for mining when their present ore body cuts out. What they SHOULDN'T be able to do is to exclude everyone from detecting those EL's especially as they aren't interested in the surface gold we are finding.

There is a great deal that could EASILY be done to right the above wrongs but a government that is interested ONLY in the money it can grab is not interested in helping the little bloke because that COSTS money.

They haven't yet woken up that the recreational prospector pours more money into the state economy than all the small lease holders in the state combined.

Personally, I won't be holding my breath until something happens to make it better for the recreational prospector. Section 20As are pretty much worthless for the visiting interstate prospector. First you have to find the dirt you want to detect to make sure it may have gold on it, then you have to take a section 20A and wait 3 weeks before you can go on it only to find that there are underlying small mining leases within the section 20A that you cannot go on without being called a gold thief.

Its all so hard that you might as well stay home - which is exactly what the small miners, big miners, and the government want. Guess what? we are not going to stay home.

Cheers, Jim

Guest Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:48 pm

ichi-ban

You don't have to worry about old man granite and his commets. He is about the most honest person i know and just about all that associate with him. He will do the right thing its the other sneaky guys you have to watch out for. I know a guy that had all his excavation equipment and big mobile Shaker stolen while in the town of Claremont getting supplys and having a feed and a few drinks. ( it totally destroyed the guy financially for a while) Twisted Evil

Guest Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:52 pm

So Jim, are you saying that it's also a waste of money buying your CD's (which we have bought) because a hel of a lot of the ground that is on the WA CD's need either section 20a paperwork and all that hassel or go and beg a ML holder for permision, and if you get permission make sure its in writing not just verbal.

Thats a hell of a lot of effort to go to just to go detecting in WA, is it worth all that effort to make sure you not doing the wrong thing. Hell yeah its worth it.

cheers dave

Guest Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:05 pm

I reckon the WA gov needs to follow the lead of the QLD gov and open up a stack of General Prospecting Areas. These GPA`s should be bordered by roads so there is no confusion for those of us who get Geographically embaressed tongue

or arent savy with the use of a GPS.

matelot Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:14 pm

I don't know how anyone who could remove "all his excavation equipment and big mobile shaker" while driving a 4Wd and towing a camper or caravan. Most of us are loaded to the hilt when we visit the goldfields and wouldn't be able or interested in stealing anyones equipment.

I recall a few years back, one particular person had most of Coolgardie surrounded with his dormant leases. He used to run around all day trying to trap anyone who might have strayed onto his "properties" with camera in hand. He never even used a pick on any of the ground.In the end, after many complaints by the locals, W.A. Mines Dept made him sell most of the leases. WELL DONE.

Regards Roger

matelot Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:16 pm

Gus, you're taking the mickey, surely.
Regards Roger pirat

Guest Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:23 pm

Gday Matelot,
Nah I`m fair Dinkim mate( well about the GPA bit anyway).
Why not do something to improve the Tourist trade at little cost to the Gov? Remove all the B S and return the ground as Crown land.
If someone told me there was a 25 sq km GPA in WA that had good gold found on it or old workings I would be keen just to go there to detect for a few weeks,whether i found anything or not.

matelot Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:46 pm

Gus, there is barely enough room in QLD to legally swing a detector, unless you can get onto private land. The State Forests are locked up and the only GPA's other than Clermont are small acreages. Clermont has been well and truely done over too.

W.A. is still the best place to go, even under the existing regs. It's only the dormant leases that bother most of us.

Regards Roger pirat

granite2 Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:37 pm

Hey Dave, it sure can be a hassle, if you let it be. But we have never had too much trouble in the ten years we have been visiting WA. In ten years we have been asked by one leasholder to move on. We had mistakenly believed we were outside the lease but the lease holder wasn't too perturbed. Embarassed

We have been asked three times to move on by bogus lease holders, people who had no right to tell us anything other than the time of day. Mad

On the credit side we have made some wonderful friends over there, and that includes small miners as well as folk who work for big companies. We have also made good friends with pastoralists from leonora to Marble Bar not to mention the many, many great recreational prospectors we have met over the years. Smile

Many of these prospectors are folk who have bought our CDs and done very well from the data we have collected, collated and burnt to the CDs. And those CDs are not confined to WA goldfields and neither are the wonderful folk from every state and territory of Australia as well as Poms, Yanks, Kiwi's Germans and others we have become friends with. Smile

Things could be better in WA but they could be worse, too. Wink

Cheers, Jim cheers

coilman Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:45 pm

I was reading about what some people would do to someone trespassing on their property and would like to tell you all about an incident that my wife and I went through a few years ago.

This story is 100% true and has not been fabricated or embellished in any way whatsoever.

My wife and I were out detecting one weekend and had accidentally wandered onto someone else's property due to either being mis-informed or I misunderstood about where we could and could not go from an adjacent property manager.
After about 4 hours we heard a car coming and suddenly we were almost crushed by a troopy driven by this guy of about 45 yrs old. He jumped out ranting and raving about us trespassing and that he was going to shoot us both. I told him we talked to his neighbouring property manager and had his permission to detect the property but had made a mistake and wandered onto his (the 45 yr old guys) land and would now leave.
As we were leaving his land he must have snapped cause he ran up behind us and hit my wife in the back of her head causing her to fall and hit her head on the rocky ground, I then turned around and ran at him and smacked him right in the middle of his face with my pick handle smashing his cheek bone and also smashing some teeth leaving a massive cut starting from left of his bottom lip and going up to his right cheek.
My wife was now badly bleeding from a cut to the back of her head and a cut to her forehead and was barely conscious. We took the guys troopy and left him there and I took my wife to the local hospital. I made sure she was ok and being seen to then went to the local police and told them what had happened. I took the cops to where we left him and he was sitting under a tree still bleeding from his wounds.
He was charged with inflicting grievous bodily harm because of my wife suffering some permanent damage to her eyesight because of her injuries and he spent 2 years in gaol with 6 months parole, he had to pay my wifes medical expenses and ongoing rehab costs and she also took him to court in a civil matter and he had to pay her an extra $120,000 for damages and disability. As for me well I was charged with assault and taken to court but the Magistrate found in my favour because the guy had threatened to shoot us both, had in his possession an unregistered firearm, was unlicensed to carry a firearm, had hurt my wife and I acted in defending her. He also had to pay my court costs and has now been made bankrupt, lost his land and his girlfriend has left him and taken their daughter and moved back to Tassie to live with her parents.
So now my wife and I sit back these days and I feel good to know his life and his looks are ruined all because he was such a bloody idiot.
He left the small town where he lived and now lives about 15 mins away from us in a ratty boarding house in Surry Hills and we see him occasionally drinking heavily in the street. He does not recognise us probably due to his heavy drinking but every time my wife see's him she starts to get upset and shakes uncontrollably and then she gets really agro but settles down after a drink or two herself.

So to all those that talk tough and big note themselves here, be warned this guy could be you one day.

Coilman.

Flakmagnet Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:27 pm

Thank you for deciding to post.
It is a sobering side of things that many do not think about when they
get all wound up about this stuff.
After all, it's only gold...

Flak

ichi-ban Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:36 pm

granite2 wrote:We are not interested in breaking into your "Lease" and stealing your bulldozer and other machinery so why should you be mentioning breaking into my house?

Because to me it amounts to the same thing. BTW - I'm concerned about you stealing my gold, not my machinery. If my dozer was on site, I'd be there with it.

And if it is so costly and time consuming to make a go of it as a small miner then why bother??? After all you are only helping to keep the fuel companies going, pushing more carbon into the air, paying the saleries of machinery salesmen etc,etc,etc.

I bother because I make a profit out it - as long as people don't poach gold on my leases.

Just get a job then go and buy a minelab GPSX5000 and join the multitude of frustrated recreational prospectors out there.e

I'm 65 years old, my knees are completely shot, I can't walk more than 200 mtrs in an hour. I had heart attack three years ago,,,,,,,,,,,I'm unemployable. Nobody would give me job but I can still stay off the govt handouts by doing what I do.

Why should I join you as a "frustrated prospector" when I can do a lot better obeying the laws of WA and using a bulldozer.

And I'm not saying that what you are doing is wrong.

You'd better not be, because what I'm doing is right under the laws of Western Australia. Whereas detecting all over the place without permission is wrong.

I'm simply saying that recreational prospectors should be given more access to OUR land that is tied up with REAL ESTATE type leases that have NEVER been worked by the leasholder and that are never GOING to be worked by the leaseholder. And while these REAL ESTATE leaseholders are tying the ground up and denying us access to OUR land - land that is owned by all Australians we can be prosocuted for detecting that land. Is that RIGHT? It might be legal but is it MORALY RIGHT?

The minerals in WA are the property of West Australians, specifically the State of Western Australia and those that lease the ground from the WA govt - as I do. The gold is not the property of people from NSW, Vic, Q'Land, the USA, the UK or Mongolia. It's called Federation and it's the same all over Australia.

Morals?? What has morals got do with mining? It's most cut-throat game in Australia and it's played hard

As for the big companies, they have every right to keep OTHER COMPANIES off their EL while they explore it and line it up for mining when their present ore body cuts out. What they SHOULDN'T be able to do is to exclude everyone from detecting those EL's especially as they aren't interested in the surface gold we are finding.

I agree. But that's what Sect 20a access is all about. Use it and solve your own problem

There is a great deal that could EASILY be done to right the above wrongs but a government that is interested ONLY in the money it can grab is not interested in helping the little bloke because that COSTS money.

Join APLA and try and change things - like i did. We got SPLs and Sect 20A put into law. What have you done lately Jim?

They haven't yet woken up that the recreational prospector pours more money into the state economy than all the small lease holders in the state combined

So you contend that "small leaseholders" that abide by the laws of WA, pay rents, declare gold, pay taxes and shire rates should be outlawed and "recreational blow ins' to be given free range, is that your stance?

Personally, I won't be holding my breath until something happens to make it better for the recreational prospector. Section 20As are pretty much worthless for the visiting interstate prospector. First you have to find the dirt you want to detect to make sure it may have gold on it, then you have to take a section 20A and wait 3 weeks before you can go on it only to find that there are underlying small mining leases within the section 20A that you cannot go on without being called a gold thief.

Errr,,,,,,,,not entirely correct Jim. You're stretching a point there about "underlying leases". Tengraph reveals all leases if only you knew how to use it. If you don't know how to use Tengraph, then stay home until you master it. If you don't know where you want to go BEFORE you get there, how do you get there at all and when do you know that you're there? Oh I see, you just wander around until you hit a patch, clean it out and then, only then do you go find out where you were and who owns it? You can see why we get a tad angry, can't you?

Its all so hard that you might as well stay home - which is exactly what the small miners, big miners, and the government want. Guess what? we are not going to stay home.

I don't want you stay home Jim. I just want you know where you are at any given time. Stay away from places that you have no permission to be on. Obey the laws of WA and make an effort to change those that you don't like. Good luck with that last one Jim. West Australian prospectors, APLA members have been trying for decades and whilst we've had a few wins I reckon we won't get much further than we are now for the forseebale future.

BTW - The Specking Patch near Leonora is no longer available to campers or prospectors. It's "under new management" and it's currently being heavily bulldozed and one of 'em is a nasty piece of work. He's known as "The Colgate Kid" and you'll see why when you meet him. So stay away from that patch you found a few years back on the track "cross roads". Yes, I know which "Jim" you are.

Oh and BTW again - I have noticed lately that WA Pastoralists, both corporate and privately owned, are becoming more savvy than they were a few years back. They now understand the conjunction of the WA Mining Act with that of the WA Pastoral Lease Act. They finally understand that they have the legal right to move you, or get you moved, off thier pastoral lease if you don't have permission to be prospecting on it. It took 'em decades to work that one out, but now they've woken up.

Cheers "Ichi-ban"
Cheers, Jim

Rtanweb Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:24 pm

Hey "Gang"

The Post by Coilman is the only non-stupid thing said on this topic.
If any of you believe what Nero said, or do as he claims, you will be in jail for a long time. I lost count of criminal offenses he admitted to in his post... lol!

For the record:
Trespass in NOT a criminal offense,
You may not demand proof of Identity unless you are a cop or forest ranger ON DUTY,
you may not detain, arrest, harass, threaten, or even touch another person. All you are allowed to do is ASK them to leave and call cops if they DON'T.

PS i have advice to prospectors and campers who worry about dickheads that want to hurt you out there in the bush:
Invest into some simple cameras such as used by cyclists on their helmets. I have 3, +1 voice-activated camera which i set up in the middle. It will follow voice or other strong noise and "sleep" when not in action automatically. They are small and very easy to hide. The other 3 cover entire 360 degree range from outside the camp. All have USB memory and you simply re-record the next day if nothing bad happens. Entire set up is less than $200, and you can post your videos to internet immediately if you got good wireless.

THIS IS NOT THE DARK AGES PEOPLE!

Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:57 pm

Trespass in NOT a criminal offense,
You may not demand proof of Identity unless you are a cop or forest ranger ON DUTY,
you may not detain, arrest, harass, threaten, or even touch another person. All you are allowed to do is ASK them to leave and call cops if they DON'T

Dont want to stir the hornets nest but that is incorrect. Anyone at any time may ask anyone for identification, the only person you HAVE to provide it for is police tho.
Anyone may also detain and arrest any person, it is called a citizen's arrest. That is all security guards are doing when they detain anyone, tho if it is found you used unreasonable force you will most likely be the one on trial.

As for tresspassing not being a criminal offense, i dont know about Victoria but if you are found tresspassing in NSW there are hefty fines with the chance or criminal prosecution.