Re: Trespassers should be........

granite2 Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:02 am

Itchi-ban you aren't at all helpful but I can understand that. You do tend to exagerate a bit on some of the issues but bandying this back and forth is not solving anything worthwhile.

I am sorry to hear you have such problems with you legs and restricted mobility. Loss of mobility is one of my great fears, probably only second to loss of sight.

As to which "Jim" I am I have never made a secret of that. But you are wrong about a patch on the Specking Patch. I have found scattered nuggets all over the specking patch but never a patch as such. I went there when I first went to WA in 99 and possibly in 2000 but never went back again until this last season. Much as I'd like to claim having found a patch on the specking patch I'm afraid I can't.

When we went back this year we found the property had changed hands and we had to gain permission, which we did. There were 4 of us in the group and we all found a few small bits but the place was alive with prospectors. To now find that someone ( I won't use the expletive here that I'd like to to describe this person's actions) has taken a lease on the Specking Patch and now excludes all those good folk who love to camp there and hopefully find a tiny nugget or two.

I again reiterate how I'd love to see all known gold fields such as the Specking Patch, Redcastle, Murrin Murrin to name just a few of the many, set aside for recreational prospectors. Using the latest detectors and a bit of patience you can always find a bit of gold on these places and thats all most recreational prospectors want: somewhere they can legally camp and do a bit of swinging without some feral fool charging out of the bush making wild threats to life and limb. I may never get back to WA but it would be a boon for all those who will and who love to detect and love the bush. Not to mention how it would do wonderful things for the economies of those nearby towns.

Cheers, Jim

But there arises another problem; its alright for some to exclude others but when they are excluded they are going to scream like wounded bulls.

ichi-ban Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Granite,

It's not that I'm being "unhelpful" - there's nothing I can help you with. I've been where you are, I've complained just as you have, I've pleaded and theorised just as you do and I got nowhere in 30 years other than the Sect 20A and SPL laws. Your plea is dead and buried. The mining lobby in WA is the strongest lobbying body in Australia and you'll never beat it.

It sounds like you came across "The Colgate Kid" or "JT", the latter being the pastoral leaseholder. Both are "tigers" when it comes to illegal mining or illegal camping. BTW - The Specking Patch has ALWAYS been under lease - for decades in fact. Your comments display your ignorance of WA and its patches.

The difference these days is the new leaseholders on The Specking Patch are actually doing something with the ground whilst the mob that had the lease prior to current owners did nothing with it for years and couldn't give a rats who went on to the lease. However, I find your contentions that you are annoyed that someone who now owns the lease and is also keeping people off it (for good reasons IMHO) is now a villain in the piece, rather at odds with what you said earlier. That wouldn't be because you can't get on there anymore, would it? Didn't you argue earlier that if a person is not working his lease then it should be open slather for prospectors such as yourself - BUT - if someone is working the lease then they should be left alone?? These new owners ARE working the lease and you're still whining about not being allowed on there!! Granite, you can't have it both ways, mate. You seem to be just a typical "blow in" that has absolutely no idea about prospecting in WA, the law, leaseholders or mining as way of earning a living. You'd like all of WA to bend over backwards, put all the laws and controls on hold as soon as you arrive in town, just because you're a "recreational prospector". Well, Jim, it's not going to happen.

We actually don't need you in our economy because by going on mining company leases without permission you make it doubly difficult for genuine alluvial miners to get a deal with a mining company. The reason being that the mining companies are tired of pastoral lease holders and Aboriginal Heritage groups complaining to them about people camping all over the place and the mess that get's left behind and Heritage sites being driven over. That's why mining companies are now buying up most of the Pastoral Stations around WA and especially around Leonora and Laverton. The following stations near Leonora are owned by Mining Companies and have caretakers on there that will challenge you if you're on their ground - Yundamindera, Glenorn, Minara, Tarmoola, Nambi. The following are privately owned by Leonora locals, but will bring in the Police to get you moved - Braemore (The Specking Patch), Clover Downs and Melita (Butterfly). That just about covers the Leonora area 100% I reckon. Near Laverton, Erlistoun is another private example. Not sure about Mt Weld and Laverton Downs however.

But there are plenty of lawful ways to go camping and swinging a bipper here in WA. You already know most of them. But you people will insist that when you turn up in town, we all have to shut down our operations and our legal system just so you and the like of you can "go camping". Sorry Jim, but you're asking a mountain to move for you. It won't. I and others have tried for years just as you have, complained just as you have. Jim, why do you think I bought a 'dozer?? Hmmm,,,,,,,,,because in the bad old days, sneaking around and getting thrown off gradually became a PIA. Now I "do it legal". I suggest you do the same, because your campaign will go nowhere, nowhere at all - just like mine didn't many years ago. There are mechanisms in WA that have been deliberately put in place to allow recreational prospectors to "go camping 'n bipping" but still they seem to want more or aren't prepared to put the effort in as the professional prospector MUST do. Just how much more do you people want Jim?

granite2 Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:31 pm

Just like you, we want everything we can get Smile

toadskin Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:35 pm

"Anyone may also detain and arrest any person, it is called a citizen's arrest. That is all security guards are doing when they detain anyone, tho if it is found you used unreasonable force you will most likely be the one on trial."

Not so. At least not in WA or the NT

In Western Australia you can use " such force as is reasonably necessary" to prevent a person from entering or remaining on land that you are in peaceable possession of, or entitled to control or manage, provided that you do not do bodily harm to that person. You cannot arrest/detain the person.

Likewise you have the same scope of powers to retain property which is rightly yours or to recover same. The recovery would need to be pretty immediate after the original taking I would imagine otherwise one would be expected to seek other legal avenues to regain possession.

In the Territory you can detain the person for the purpose of recovering property they have taken (and are still in possession of). ie. until the Police arrive however technically, once they hand over the property, you no longer have the right to detain them.

The Northern Territory Criminal Code allows similar powers as does the Queensland Criminal Code.

ichi-ban Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:26 pm

granite2 wrote:Just like you, we want everything we can get

Jim, we get all that we're entitled to under the law. Because we have so much paperwork that must be registered with the Mines Dept, Pastoral leaseholders and the Native Title groups we have no choice but to obey. We can't get "all we can get" we can only obtain "all we're allowed to get". I suggest you settle for precisely the same and not "all you can get". There's laws that protect me, pastoralists, mining companies and there's other laws that protect you. Learn 'em, use 'em or get caught and pay the price - alternatively, stay away.

ichi-ban Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:56 pm

Let's forget arguing and follow a bit if logic instead. I've been prospecting in WA for almost 30 years and lately I've found that there hasn't been a "leap in technology" for the last few years. The SD/GP was the last one and they've been cleaning out old patches for almost 16 years.

Now, there's not just you and I doing this "bipping thing" Jim. There's a squillion others. I stopped doing old patches with just a detector many years ago. When my dozer is not available, I just do "virgin ground" or often, ground that's been far less thrashed, shall we say. And it's fair dinkum amazing what I find in new ground. My wife and I found 6 new patches in 3 months last year. One was on a rare bit (in WA) of vacant ground. Three others were on my mate's ground where I was patch hunting for his bulldozer, while his wife was crook. The others were on ELs under Sect 20a applications. None were on thrashed out, "Grandad's Patch" areas. One will be my next target for my 'dozer - it was that good.

If a person regards themselves as any sort of prospector then they should be using the Sect 20a system, having a bash on ELs and finding new patches. I do it, others are doing it all the time. WA has a huge gold bearing area. I rerckon only about 15% of it has had a good thrashing with metal detectors. If you use the tools that are there for you, such as Sect 20a, you can camp, detect until the cows come home - 3 months at a time - and you'll get no hassles from anyone. The "clued up" ones that are patch hunting are getting far more gold than those going over and over old ground. I see it all the time. Improved detectors only get smaller gold off old patches (with odd exceptions) whereas a new patch can be found with an SD2000. Good Luck.

PS - I reckon an SD2100 will outdo a GP for depth any day. That's another reason I bought a new 'dozer - no depth with the latest machines, just bits that need a magnifying glass to be seen.

Guest Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:19 am

ichi-ban wrote:
We actually don't need you in our economy because by going on mining company leases without permission you make it doubly difficult for genuine alluvial miners to get a deal with a mining company.

Personally,I dont care if thats the case Ichi-ban.All Im worried about is being able to detect somewhere(legally) when I come over. Jim has stated that he has only ever made an error once,and removed himself soon after it was pointed out to him. The fact is YOU DO NEED US IN YOUR ECONOMY! Your local caravan parks dont make any money from you blokes,and the general stores and associated businesses need us as well.

The following stations near Leonora are owned by Mining Companies and have caretakers on there that will challenge you if you're on their ground - Yundamindera, Glenorn, Minara, Tarmoola, Nambi. The following are privately owned by Leonora locals, but will bring in the Police to get you moved - Braemore (The Specking Patch), Clover Downs and Melita (Butterfly). That just about covers the Leonora area 100% I reckon. Near Laverton, Erlistoun is another private example. Not sure about Mt Weld and Laverton Downs however.

The average Gold Tourist dosent have the time,the money,the maps or the knoledge to spend weeks and months to go looking for a virgin patch. I would have liked to detect around know areas,as Im a gun at cleaning up the scraps others have missed.
Then again I must be wrong,because all the gold in WA belongs to the small time miners....dosent it! Twisted Evil

ichi-ban Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:25 pm

"The average Gold Tourist dosent have the time,the money,the maps or the knoledge to spend weeks and months to go looking for a virgin patch".

,,,and somehow we have to make allowances for the lazy, idle, can't be bothered with research, "Average Gold Tourist do we? Aawwwww diddums Gus. You just want it all laid on for you when you arrive in WA dontcha? Then the legal owners of that particular lease, that pay the taxes, fees, rent and rates on that lease, have to let you on and perhaps vacate the area for 6 weeks whilst you have your peaceful, interstate, camping holiday, whilst taking his gold and his income. Are serious? You are living on another planet Gus.

"I would have liked to detect around know areas,as Im a gun at cleaning up the scraps others have missed."

Well, whoopee Gus!! You are a king amongst operators. So are most leaseowners because thier income and liveliehood depends on being gun operators. Mind you a big CAT helps the big bits come to the top a lot quicker.

"Then again I must be wrong,because all the gold in WA belongs to the small time miners....dosent it! "

Nope. If you were to take the time to read the WA Mining Act and the laws of Federated States of Australia, you'd see that "the gold in the gold in the ground is the property of The Crown until such time as it is found by the leaseholder". So until the leaseholder digs up the gold, the gold belongs to the State of Western Australia. So, Gus, if you dig up gold on someone elses lease you are in fact stealing from The Crown. That's where the WA police become involved as it's a Crown offence. And we both know how upset The Crown gets when people steal from it e.g - Customs and Excise, The Australian Tax Office, Centrelink and in this case the State Of Western Australia. Lately, the WA Police have shown great interest in gold being taken from leases by rogue prospectors. And we've had so much of it that we're only too pleased to assist our local "thin blue line" in thier endeavours.

But more importantly, from the perspective of "mateship amongst prospectors" you're taking a man's income away from him and his family. It's a bit like stealing a working blokes tools or stealing his ute. He's out of pocket and the thief has got his goods. That doesn't display much of the "mateship" that everyone on gold forums likes to believe exists in The Goldeilds."Mateship",,,,more like "bullship". It's a myth. Prospectors are everyone's mate until the gold starts coming out of the ground and if someone's not getting any, then "mateship" goes out the window.

"all the gold in WA belongs to the small time miners"

No Gus, the only gold that belongs to "small miners" is that which they have found and hold in thier hands,,,,,,,,,,until they dig up the remainder, as leaseholders. If you're not THE LEASEHOLDER you don't even have the right to dig it up at all, whatsoever, no way bro', end of story. And if you don't have permission to be on a lease, then you shouldn't even be camping on that lease never mind digging out the gold from it.

Guest Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:57 pm

You seem very Paranoid Ichi-ban.
I only want to detect LEGALLY mate,and I dont want to tread on anyones toes whist im doing that.
Its always a small number who bugger it for the rest of us when it comes to trespassing.It happens in all hobbies whether its hunting,fishing,4wding ect.
Its not too much to ask for you blokes to leave some crown land close to the major towns for us Tourist detectorists. But Gold does funny things to people,and it seems alluvial small scale miners arent exempt from that.

granite2 Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:45 pm

Now Ichiban, I always thought that a Miners Right gave me the RIGHT to dig up and carry away gold from Crown Land. Are you telling me this isn't so?

As for recreational prospectors versus leaseholders. Not all lease holders mine for a living, many are in it in a recreational manner.

Ichi-ban, you are looking at this from the view of a person who mines gold for a living. Recreational prospectors are just that - recreational and many do come from the eastern states, just as most WA folk can trace their ancestors back to the eastern states when those people rushed over to WA to search for gold.

As eastern staters those folk often have only a few weeks to detect and don't want to wast those precious hours searching on a section 20A that has no gold on it. And many of the grey nomads do not have any computer skills let alone enough to do the research and apply for 20As. But these folk who have spent their entire lives working and helping to make this great country what it is today get no sympathy from those who claim to own the unique right to mine all the gold in WA.

Let me tell you about my first trip to WA in 99. APLA placed a story in the G&T informing eastern staters who planned to detect in WA that coming season should join the APLA. By doing so they would get all the help they needed to find places where they could legally detect etc, etc.

I joined up and upon arrival in Kal I attempted to contact a APLA member. After a few days I finally tracked down a member who was on the comittee. He said he couldn't help me. After talking a while he mentioned he worked full time but had a lease and did a fair bit of detecting when he wasn't working his lease. I asked him where he went detecting when he wasn't working his lease. His reply stunned me. He said he simply went wherever he wanted to go. After digesting this bit of news I asked if he had to have permission to detect the leases belonging to others, he said no. I mused on this a bit and then asked him where his lease was. He reacted as if he'd been stung on the arse by a wasp. He reared up and yelled "You can't go on my lease!" I replied by pointing out he'd just told me he indiscriminatly detected leases held by other folk. "But that's alright for me as I'm a leaseholder myself, all leaseholders detect other leases".

Needless to say I never have renewed my APLA membership.

Itchi-ban you are as full of the proverbial as that APLA bloke I talked to in Kal. All this crap about stealing a man's income is just that, all crap. The blokes you want to look out for are other APLA members and WA prospectors who also have machinery. Eastern Staters, and most WA folk, simply want to do a bit of detecting and if you can't handle that then all I can say is AAAAAAAAWWW DIDDUMS.

The Modern Day Prospector Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:29 pm

I am enjoying reading this thread you blokes, some good stuff in there.

Cheers Brian.

Kon61gold Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:47 pm

Don't mind differences of opinions guys, but as long as it only stays that way

Jeff

ichi-ban Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:19 pm

Gus wrote:You seem very Paranoid Ichi-ban.
I only want to detect LEGALLY mate,and I dont want to tread on anyones toes whist im doing that.
Its always a small number who bugger it for the rest of us when it comes to trespassing.It happens in all hobbies whether its hunting,fishing,4wding ect.
Its not too much to ask for you blokes to leave some crown land close to the major towns for us Tourist detectorists. But Gold does funny things to people,and it seems alluvial small scale miners arent exempt from that.

Gus,

Mining companies hold far more ground than small miners ever will. I don't know the precise ratio but from my experience it'd about 5% small leaseholder and 95% corporate miners. Don't forget that a lot of companies aren't looking just for gold here in WA. Nickel is very big here and requires enormous areas of ground to scrape in order to recover the nickel ore. Minara Resources is a classic example. They own 85% of the ground between Leonora, Laverton and Eucalyptus and most of it was good gold ground. But it also contains good nickel. Copper is another target, particularly north of Meekatharra. Then there's lead, zinc, iron ore, tin, rare earths. All take up ground to mine economically. So best if you ask the mining companies if they'll put some ground on one side for you. I know what the answer will be. There is a "tourist fossicking area" on the outskirts of Marble Bar. Good luck with it.

I can't for the life of me figure what's so friggin' hard about understanding that "small scale alluvial miners" are simply keeping what's legally theirs!! It's no different to your wife's jewellery or your car and caravan. It's our gold and your wife's jewellery!! What's the friggin' difference? I steal your wife's gold and you come and steal our gold. Seems a fair swap as long as it's decent jewellery. It's got naff all to do with paranoia, but a lot to do with my bank balance!! JSF!!

Alan WA Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:33 pm

With pending ground and the EL permit system WA is the freest place in Australia
to detect. Just wish the other states were as good. Qld in particular.

Here's a tip.
Work backwards. Keep an eye on new pegging for EL or Pl's. They
will be pending for about a year. Research them.

At least with this system the available ground changes.Not as,say, in Vic
where its the same ground all the time.

Alan

ichi-ban Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:56 pm

Thanks Alan. It's damned hard work trying to make people see just that. WA is the best place in Australia to go detecting. It still has good gold, as long as you're prepared to do the hard yards. It has a legal framework that supports small scale miners, recreational prospectors as well as corporate miners and pastoralists. The same cannot be said for NSW, Vic, Queensland and NT has recently become a total lockout for prospectors I believe .

Most of that legal framework in WA was put in place due to APLA and it's prospectors and nobody else. Without that resistance from APLA, WA would have been locked out, all over, finished for small guys of any description. No recreational prospectors, no small miners, no Sect 20a, no SPL, no "detecting permits" at all. Yet Jim reckons it's a not worth supporting the organisation. But still he wants even more. That's just about bloody typical of "recreational prospectors". I've had it up to my back teeth with 'em and I'm slowly becoming hostile to all of 'em. If they don't want to learn and move onwards - then they can simply just MOVE ON.

I did write a long reply to Jim but it's lost somewhere in the ether. So, fans, watch this space for more interesting and informative stuff tomorrow.

Guest Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:12 pm

G'day ichi-ban

There is some very good info in amongst what your saying and I agree that the section 20a system in WA is a damn good one, wish we had one like it in NSW.

About your post dissapearing into the "ether" a sussgestion is, when you finish your post, copy it and save it, and that way if it was a long post and somehow it dosen't send properly, which is the case sometimes, you simply get the post screen back up and paste it and hit send.

Alternativly type you post in "Word" or a similar program, and when your finished just copy it from there and paste it here, it save a lot of frustration when you've just finished, and go to post your masterpiece up and bugger, its gone walkabout never to return.

cheers dave

ichi-ban Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:24 pm

I know! I know! But I forgot - again- and got caught - again. Thanks Davsgold.

I've had some very supportive PMs that see the sense in what I'm saying. But somehow Jim doesn't get it and judging from what I've seen and heard of him in the past he hasn't changed one bit. Unfortunately, in some ways, "the bad old days" of wandering willy nilly were good times and it's a pity they're gone. But now, there are so many people out there, chasing gold, that laws needed to be upgraded in some cases and merely enforcing the old ones properly in other cases. Otherwise it would be a "range war" out there in WA. Shooting matches were common in the days of the old timers but they have been recorded in the last few years as well. Duketon, Royal Arthur and The Frenchmans spring to mind here.

More tomorrow - Jim

Guest Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:36 pm

There are a lot of differing opinions flying around in this thread but the one thing that stands out is that the recreational prospector seems to have buckleys hope of detecting for gold anywhere in Australia without stepping on somebodies toes/lease, EL etc.

I can understand why there is a need to regulate who goes where, How long you stay and what sort of gold fossicking/mining/detecting is carried out on any area of ground irrespective of whether it is some form of lease or not. Been there done that, researched, prospected, pegged ground and worked it and there was nothing easy about any of it.

The fact remains that a recreational detectorist cannot swing a pick even for half a second without breaking a law of some kind if he simply steps out of his car swings the detector for an hour or so within sight of his vehicle. He is just passing through on his way to somewhere; He wants to relax and do a bit of detecting. He is not going to unload a Dozer or Bobcat or Backhoe of the back of his van or out of the boot of his car and strip somebodies lease clean of all gold; He is the type of person who with his Miners Right just wants to "Have a Try" with his shiny new or maybe very old and well use detector.

There is no doubt that it would be great to be able to pull up on the side of the road and do that without having to worry about whether your are breaking a law.

Lifting a 0.1 gm bit of gold of anybodies EL or Lease is not going to kill anybody; Not going to send a hard working lease holder broke; Not going to cause him to cut his wrists in dispair at having lost a sub gm nugg to a "Bloody Eastener". The bloke is going to be Here today and gone tomorrow.

If after he gets back home and tells his mates that he found a few bits of gold in one particular spot and they all "In their thousands" head back to that spot the following year with their GPX 10,000 and are clearly set up for some serious prospecting then yeah for sure the Lease Holder would hunt them off if they had not sought permission and obtained all of the neccessary permits..

We have so tied ourselves up with our own laws to the extent that we cannot even fart without breaking a law.

Flakmagnet Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:17 am

For as touchy a topic as this is
the posters have kept the discussion on the tracks
and have contributed a lot of good information as well as food for thought.

For someone who has everything to learn about Australian Prospecting laws and customs,
this has been a great primer.

cheers

matelot Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:20 am

Anyone coming from the East to detect in W.A. should put in for a 20A permit before leaving home, as it takes three weeks for it to become "live". The postal address should be the Post Office that you will be passing as you enter W.A. e.g. Kalgoorlie from the south, or perhaps Marble Bar from the North. Both these towns have Mining Dept offices. When you arrive take out more 20A's, depending which way you are going. Otherwise you have to find "open" or "pending" ground and that can be difficult. Some of the mining companies will let you on their leases but not many as they are worried about being sued if you get hurt. Barrick Mining used to be very helpful but I don't know the current situation. You have to front up at their Kalgoorlie office.

I can understand both sides of the discussion and there are many good points. As I said previously, my wife and I go over every year for about four months and enjoy it. The lease holders may not like us, but the business people sure do as we drop $20,000/$25,000 each time.

Regards Roger pirat

paulf Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:22 am

matelot wrote:Anyone coming from the East to detect in W.A. should put in for a 20A permit before leaving home, as it takes three weeks for it to become "live". The postal address should be the Post Office that you will be passing as you enter W.A. e.g. Kalgoorlie from the south, or perhaps Marble Bar from the North. Both these towns have Mining Dept offices. When you arrive take out more 20A's, depending which way you are going. Otherwise you have to find "open" or "pending" ground and that can be difficult. Some of the mining companies will let you on their leases but not many as they are worried about being sued if you get hurt. Barrick Mining used to be very helpful but I don't know the current situation. You have to front up at their Kalgoorlie office.

I can understand both sides of the discussion and there are many good points. As I said previously, my wife and I go over every year for about four months and enjoy it. The lease holders may not like us, but the business people sure do as we drop $20,000/$25,000 each time.

Regards Roger

Well said Roger. Very Happy

Paul

ichi-ban Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:06 pm

Now Ichiban, I always thought that a Miners Right gave me the RIGHT to dig up and carry away gold from Crown Land. Are you telling me this isn't so?

Now Jim, you are becoming a bit silly. Facetiously obtuse even. You know the rules about “The Miner’s Right”. You know that I know rules about “The Miners Right”. For the benefit of others - In WA, a “Miner’s Right” entitles the holder to remove “30 kgs of samples” from Vacant Crown Land (VCL). Jim, as soon as a leaseholder has a mining tenement granted to him (or a company), then that ground is no longer VACANT (VCL). It then becomes a mining tenement. It could be a PL, ML or an EL. After that grant, a person cannot prospect for gold on such ground without the permission of the tenement holder or, in the case of an EL, without a Sect 20a application. You know all this Jim so why make an argument out of an indisputable fact?

As for recreational prospectors versus leaseholders. Not all lease holders mine for a living, many are in it in a recreational manner.

Ichi-ban, you are looking at this from the view of a person who mines gold for a living. Recreational prospectors are just that - recreational and many do come from the eastern states, just as most WA folk can trace their ancestors back to the eastern states when those people rushed over to WA to search for gold.

As eastern staters those folk often have only a few weeks to detect and don't want to wast those precious hours searching on a section 20A that has no gold on it. And many of the grey nomads do not have any computer skills let alone enough to do the research and apply for 20As. But these folk who have spent their entire lives working and helping to make this great country what it is today get no sympathy from those who claim to own the unique right to mine all the gold in WA.

Jim, it amazes me the number of people that spend months getting their caravans, cars, detectors, food, supplies, tyres, jerry cans, tools all sorted out for their trip to the WA Goldfeilds but don’t bother to spend any time at all on research or getting permission to go on leases. That tells me that these people don’t care a rats about getting permits and it’s not the case, as you contend, that they don’t know how to. They just can’t be arsed. The controls that are in place in WA are there to prevent a full on, onslaught of people onto mining tenements belonging to other people and companies. After all these years you’d think people would get the hang of how to get permission. Jim, they’re just too damn lazy and don’t care a toss about other people’s property. The attitude is “Oh we won’t get sprung, we’ll be OK”. So be it Jim, we’re waiting for them. You mention “sympathy”. I don’t see much sympathy from these types about paying rent, rates, taxes, Aboriginal Heritage search fees on my leases, rehab costs do you? I don’t see much sympathy from these types about telling companies what they found and where they found it, so that the company can put in some geological sampling and drilling and perhaps find the orebody to mine it. Which may just give someone a job and perhaps a new mine. Sympathy? You lot don’t know the meaning of the word. It’s just “get in, get the gold and get out”.

Let me tell you about my first trip to WA in 99. APLA placed a story in the G&T informing eastern staters who planned to detect in WA that coming season should join the APLA. By doing so they would get all the help they needed to find places where they could legally detect etc, etc.

Jim, more and more companies are insisting on APLA membership before even considering allowing anyone access to their ground. St Barbara’s, Norton Gold north of Kal, Crescent Gold at Laverton, Focus Minerals at Coolgardie to name a few. It’s becoming the norm. Public liability is becoming a threat under the “duty of care” legislation, insurance is skyrocketing. It’s only APLA’s influence with these companies that is keeping access on the table. Otherwise, they’d close the doors in a heartbeat. We’ve even had some small miners threatened with legal action for compensation when a “recreational prospector” has injured themselves on a lease!! For JSF’s sake, Jim why should we bother letting people on our ground? Just bugger off will ya! You’re too much trouble.

I joined up and upon arrival in Kal I attempted to contact a APLA member. After a few days I finally tracked down a member who was on the comittee. He said he couldn't help me. After talking a while he mentioned he worked full time but had a lease and did a fair bit of detecting when he wasn't working his lease. I asked him where he went detecting when he wasn't working his lease. His reply stunned me. He said he simply went wherever he wanted to go. After digesting this bit of news I asked if he had to have permission to detect the leases belonging to others, he said no. I mused on this a bit and then asked him where his lease was. He reacted as if he'd been stung on the arse by a wasp. He reared up and yelled "You can't go on my lease!" I replied by pointing out he'd just told me he indiscriminatly detected leases held by other folk. "But that's alright for me as I'm a leaseholder myself, all leaseholders detect other leases".

I can assure you, Jim, that is not the norm. He was an idiot to even say it and was probably grandstanding. However, on the other hand, the case here could be quite simple. He knew the “rules” – the unwritten rules that are present in all walks of life. He knew where he could detect without causing any waves. He may have known people and had contacts with other tenement holders and companies that you couldn’t dream of. I have some of those types of contacts as do other WA prospectors. Unfortunately, you don’t or didn't have that kind of knowledge and neither do most of the other “blow ins” from The East or WA. The prospecting fraternity in WA is very close knit, to the point of a being “closed shop”. It has to be. Knowledge is a valuable as the latest model detector or a D9 bulldozer.

Needless to say I never have renewed my APLA membership.

Suit yourself, Jim. It’ll be you that loses out, not APLA or me or other prospectors. There’s a load of ground that you’ll never be allowed to detect and a load of ground from which you’ll be evicted if you get caught there. But remember, as others have said on this thread, WA has the freest, most open, liberal laws for recreational prospectors in the whole of Australia. Queensland is practically all private land, Victoria ditto, NSW – why bother and the NT has just been “nuked” with the latest laws locking small prospectors entirely. WA has by far the largest goldfield area in Australia and you can access most of it by using the tools and laws that are provided for you. Which organisation got these changes through WA Parliament? – APLA that’s who. 7 years ago when the two biggest and most powerful mining lobby groups in WA (AMEC and The Chamber of Mines) wanted “The Miner’s Right” removed from the Mining Act completely, who stopped it? - APLA that’s who. Who invented the SPLS and got the SPL laws through? - APLA that’s who. Which team got the Sect 20a thing together and passed into law? - The APLA team of unpaid volunteers that are fighting to keep people like you in prospecting. Without these laws, mining companies would have had control over the whole of WA. That meant no access WHATSOEVER – a total ban. They wanted “recreational prospectors” outlawed – just like every other State in Australia. I sometimes wonder why the APLA team bothers when some of those same people hold leases that your kind wander over and take the gold off it. At this point, the betrayal is such that if I could swear on this forum I would.

Itchi-ban you are as full of the proverbial as that APLA bloke I talked to in Kal. All this crap about stealing a man's income is just that, all crap. The blokes you want to look out for are other APLA members and WA prospectors who also have machinery. Eastern Staters, and most WA folk, simply want to do a bit of detecting and if you can't handle that then all I can say is AAAAAAAAWWW DIDDUMS.

Jim, I’m afraid it’s becoming very apparent to all on here that it’s you that is full of it. You know the law and you flout it. You know you’re a gold thief and you still carry on stealing it. You’d love to be part of the WA “in” crowd but you refuse to join it. You know you’re hitting your head against a mountain and yet you continue to do it. There’s a system tailor made for recreational prospectors and you refuse to use it. Jim, I can’t help you anymore as you just don’t want to be helped. Suffice for me to say to you and others of your ilk,,,,,,,,,,,,you’ve got no chance of obtaining the unfettered access that you long for. You’ll never win because the corporate mining lobby is the most powerful lobby in Australia. To get them to change requires a lot of pressure over many years. They will never give you what you seek and neither will small miners such as me and friends that I know are reading this thread. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. I gave up with your type of thinking decades ago as nobody was interested. So Jim, my advice is get with programme or stay home.

ichi-ban Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:15 pm

matelot wrote:Anyone coming from the East to detect in W.A. should put in for a 20A permit before leaving home, as it takes three weeks for it to become "live". The postal address should be the Post Office that you will be passing as you enter W.A. e.g. Kalgoorlie from the south, or perhaps Marble Bar from the North. Both these towns have Mining Dept offices. When you arrive take out more 20A's, depending which way you are going. Otherwise you have to find "open" or "pending" ground and that can be difficult. Some of the mining companies will let you on their leases but not many as they are worried about being sued if you get hurt. Barrick Mining used to be very helpful but I don't know the current situation. You have to front up at their Kalgoorlie office.

I can understand both sides of the discussion and there are many good points. As I said previously, my wife and I go over every year for about four months and enjoy it. The lease holders may not like us, but the business people sure do as we drop $20,000/$25,000 each time.

Regards Roger

Roger, all good advice, thanks. If you're talking about Barrick Gold at Paddington, 20 kms north of Kal, they no longer have that ground. It now belongs to Norton Gold who bought it about 4 years ago. AFAIK they will let people onto some parts of it. However, as I've stated APLA membership is mandatory for an access permit. Being so close to Kal the ground's been done to death. But good luck folks.

slimpickens Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:25 pm

" Unfortunately, you don’t or didn't have that kind of knowledge and neither do most of the other “blow ins” from The East or WA." Ichi-ban
Bit derogatory and eletist don't you think Ichi-ban? I thought we were all after the same thing.

ichi-ban Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:31 pm

Adrian ss wrote:There are a lot of differing opinions flying around in this thread but the one thing that stands out is that the recreational prospector seems to have buckleys hope of detecting for gold anywhere in Australia without stepping on somebodies toes/lease, EL etc.

False

I can understand why there is a need to regulate who goes where, How long you stay and what sort of gold fossicking/mining/detecting is carried out on any area of ground irrespective of whether it is some form of lease or not. Been there done that, researched, prospected, pegged ground and worked it and there was nothing easy about any of it.

Adrian, now you understand a little of what we small miners have to wade through. And let me assure you, what a recreational prospector has to go through is a picnic compared to what we have to go through, Don't even mention the cost - your $25.00 for Sect 20 vs any figure higher than $6,000.00 for a small bulldozing jobs and that's only "red tape" costs. It doesn't include fuel, deprecition, breakdowns, servicing etc.

The fact remains that a recreational detectorist cannot swing a pick even for half a second without breaking a law of some kind if he simply steps out of his car swings the detector for an hour or so within sight of his vehicle. He is just passing through on his way to somewhere; He wants to relax and do a bit of detecting. He is not going to unload a Dozer or Bobcat or Backhoe of the back of his van or out of the boot of his car and strip somebodies lease clean of all gold; He is the type of person who with his Miners Right just wants to "Have a Try" with his shiny new or maybe very old and well use detector.

Oh sweet dreamer, oh that it was still that simple.

There is no doubt that it would be great to be able to pull up on the side of the road and do that without having to worry about whether your are breaking a law.

Lifting a 0.1 gm bit of gold of anybodies EL or Lease is not going to kill anybody; Not going to send a hard working lease holder broke; Not going to cause him to cut his wrists in dispair at having lost a sub gm nugg to a "Bloody Eastener". The bloke is going to be Here today and gone tomorrow.

Yep - "gone", and so is a "little nugget" that was the evidence for a serious prospector that could provide a lead to a new patch and perhaps a new mine. Just a point to consider. But them's the breaks.

If after he gets back home and tells his mates that he found a few bits of gold in one particular spot and they all "In their thousands" head back to that spot the following year with their GPX 10,000 and are clearly set up for some serious prospecting then yeah for sure the Lease Holder would hunt them off if they had not sought permission and obtained all of the neccessary permits..

So now you see, Adrian, why we have the controls in place. That's precisely what happens here in WA. This is evident from the thousands of people that keep coming back here!

We have so tied ourselves up with our own laws to the extent that we cannot even fart without breaking a law.

Adrian, so why are the laws there? I'll tell you. Because people keep doing the wrong thing. Appealing to thier better judgement hasn't helped, has it? So if we're to maintain some form of order and not chaos, we need laws. So all the people that reckon going onto ground and taking gold from it is OK - you have only yourselves to blame for the laws we have today.

ichi-ban Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:35 pm

shiraz wrote:" Unfortunately, you don’t or didn't have that kind of knowledge and neither do most of the other “blow ins” from The East or WA." Ichi-ban
Bit derogatory and eletist don't you think Ichi-ban? I thought we were all after the same thing.

Nothing of the kind. You either have contacts or you don't. Sorry if you don't have any. Not my fault. There's always a pecking order in any society. If you're at the bottom try a bit harder by working at your knowledge. Research maps, Tengraph, companies, directors, exploration managers, the WA Mining Act, APLA, networking.

Yes we are all after the same thing. Some do it the right way and some don't. What do you do?

slimpickens Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:54 pm

I bail up stagecoaches

granite2 Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:09 pm

Ichi-ban you continue to cover the same ground so often its a wonder you don't get giddy. And if you think its so tough to make a living then do something else. If the laws there are so wrong then you lot arn't doing enough to change them.

The PMAV have made so many representations to the Vic government it is amazing. They have also had many laws changed and amended to allow prospecting where it had either been previously banned or was in dire danger of it being banned. Rita Bentley and her husband deserves a medal for all the work they have done. As a result Victoria is the best place to go prospecting legally in Australia. You don't even have to get permission to go on an EL. The only problem is, its a small state with a helluva lot of prospetors and the gold is getting very thin on the ground compared to the huge state of WA.

Like a government, you get what you deserve and if you don't change the laws, or the government then you deserve what you get.

You have never taken any notice of what I have said except to roar back into the attack as to why I am doing the wrong thing and you are doing the right thing. Recreational prospectors don't dig deep holes with a dozer or scrape huge areas of dirt but you blokes with your toy dozers and high and mighty ideas about how you have the right to do this are the blokes who are doing the wrong thing. And don't say you blokes don't I have seen it myself many times where a leaseholder gets wind of a patch nearby and sneeks his tractor out and rapes the patch before slinking back to his lease. When - and if- someone comes asking about the illegal scraping everyone looks innocent and says "Ooooh how awful, but it wasn't me".

Illegal scrapings and dozing isn't done by recreational prospectors its done most often by LEGAL leaseholders who have the audacity to blame it mostly on Eastern staters.

I think just about all that can be discussed in a sensible manner has been discussed and I see nothing to gain by continuing. You can go on doing the RIGHT thing while I go on doing what I do.

As for your accusation of me stealing gold - I have never knowingly stole gold anywhere in any state in Australia, and I have prospected in them all.

Cheers, Jim

Guest Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:40 pm

ichi-ban wrote:
Adrian ss wrote:There are a lot of differing opinions flying around in this thread but the one thing that stands out is that the recreational prospector seems to have buckleys hope of detecting for gold anywhere in Australia without stepping on somebodies toes/lease, EL etc.

False

I can understand why there is a need to regulate who goes where, How long you stay and what sort of gold fossicking/mining/detecting is carried out on any area of ground irrespective of whether it is some form of lease or not. Been there done that, researched, prospected, pegged ground and worked it and there was nothing easy about any of it.

Adrian, now you understand a little of what we small miners have to wade through. And let me assure you, what a recreational prospector has to go through is a picnic compared to what we have to go through, Don't even mention the cost - your $25.00 for Sect 20 vs any figure higher than $6,000.00 for a small bulldozing jobs and that's only "red tape" costs. It doesn't include fuel, deprecition, breakdowns, servicing etc.

The fact remains that a recreational detectorist cannot swing a pick even for half a second without breaking a law of some kind if he simply steps out of his car swings the detector for an hour or so within sight of his vehicle. He is just passing through on his way to somewhere; He wants to relax and do a bit of detecting. He is not going to unload a Dozer or Bobcat or Backhoe of the back of his van or out of the boot of his car and strip somebodies lease clean of all gold; He is the type of person who with his Miners Right just wants to "Have a Try" with his shiny new or maybe very old and well use detector.

Oh sweet dreamer, oh that it was still that simple.

There is no doubt that it would be great to be able to pull up on the side of the road and do that without having to worry about whether your are breaking a law.

Lifting a 0.1 gm bit of gold of anybodies EL or Lease is not going to kill anybody; Not going to send a hard working lease holder broke; Not going to cause him to cut his wrists in dispair at having lost a sub gm nugg to a "Bloody Eastener". The bloke is going to be Here today and gone tomorrow.

Yep - "gone", and so is a "little nugget" that was the evidence for a serious prospector that could provide a lead to a new patch and perhaps a new mine. Just a point to consider. But them's the breaks.

If after he gets back home and tells his mates that he found a few bits of gold in one particular spot and they all "In their thousands" head back to that spot the following year with their GPX 10,000 and are clearly set up for some serious prospecting then yeah for sure the Lease Holder would hunt them off if they had not sought permission and obtained all of the neccessary permits..

So now you see, Adrian, why we have the controls in place. That's precisely what happens here in WA. This is evident from the thousands of people that keep coming back here!

We have so tied ourselves up with our own laws to the extent that we cannot even fart without breaking a law.

Adrian, so why are the laws there? I'll tell you. Because people keep doing the wrong thing. Appealing to thier better judgement hasn't helped, has it? So if we're to maintain some form of order and not chaos, we need laws. So all the people that reckon going onto ground and taking gold from it is OK - you have only yourselves to blame for the laws we have today.

I applaud you sport, you do know your stuff; It is a pity that a bit of logic and common sense dosen't prevail where the recreational detectorist is concerned. If there are thousands of detectorist going to WA each year to prospect then I think that maybe they are not what I refer to as Recreational detectorists, especially if they roll up with their Pajero's, Campervans, solar panels, Posty bikes and porta potties.

I do understand very well the need for rules and regulations, but where gold prospecting and fossicking by amateurs and rock hounds is concerned I think we have gone way overboard.

Quote;
Yep - "gone", and so is a "little nugget" that was the evidence for a serious prospector that could provide a lead to a new patch and perhaps a new mine. Just a point to consider. But them's the breaks.
Unquote.

I am fairly certain that every single detectorist, prospector and fossicker (amateur and So called Professional is guilty of this almost every time they recover a bit of gold. We are constantly reading how an old hand, full time prospector with his GPX 4500, 5000 finds a Patch and talks about how he tries to Clean it out before anybody else can get to it.
These are not Recreational gold detectorists.... Just ask them and they will tell you that they are professionals detecting gold for a living.

matelot Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:57 pm

Adrian ss,
What is your nomenclature of a recreational prospector? I have most of the items that you mention and more.

I consider myself to be a recreatioal prospector. I don't sell any gold that I find and I am retired.

Regards Roger pirat

Trespassers should be........