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Nugget Finder Advantage Coils

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mallee00
Mark
detecta2
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Beer Beeper
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Post  kim Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:27 pm

Hi All,

Just wondering if anybody has been using he new Advantage coils and how are they performing?

Thanks

Kim
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Post  Pennyweight Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:08 pm

Hi,
I have only seen the 18" mono thus far...lovely looking dark grey coils with red sticker. Tony has one for day-loan at Goldsearch. Word is that they add a few percentage points of depth, no matter what size target. Real benefits are for GPX owners though, not earlier apparently. Will still work fine on GP's but....just not as much extra performance. From what I've heard that is Wink
Cheers, Dwt
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Post  Guest Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:24 pm

Do they have that new wire in them?

If so is that where the new performance comes
from or is it something else?

cheers fencejumper

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Post  Pennyweight Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:33 pm

Hi FJ,
from what Rohan told me last year, it uses new spec wire PLUS a couple of other tricks. I'll get a chance to try one next week hopefully. Still not sure which sizes are coming out in the first 'run', can anyone enlighten us?
Cheers, Dwt
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Post  Granite Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:23 am

Good lord, you mean Rohan is no longer using the much vaunted Litz wire. From memory, thats my long term memory, my short term is shot to pieces, there was nothing better in the world than Litz wire and thats why NF coils were all better than anything else on the market. I'm devastated!!!

And my long term memory just kicked in with another marketing ploy from long ago, that was that fibreglass was by far the best casing for a coil and now they use high impact plastic like everyone else. Curses! Doesn't anyone stick to their game plan anymore? Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Post  Guest Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:37 am

thanks dwt,
looking forward to what you think about them.
cheers fencejumper

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Post  Jonathan Porter Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am

Re: NF Advantage coils
by Granite Today at 9:23 am

Good lord, you mean Rohan is no longer using the much vaunted Litz wire. From memory, thats my long term memory, my short term is shot to pieces, there was nothing better in the world than Litz wire and thats why NF coils were all better than anything else on the market. I'm devastated!!!

And my long term memory just kicked in with another marketing ploy from long ago, that was that fibreglass was by far the best casing for a coil and now they use high impact plastic like everyone else. Curses! Doesn't anyone stick to their game plan anymore?

Granite


A little like your much discussed article in GG&T about the Coiltek PRO DD coils and their so called denser magnetic fields and ground bending the field of Monoloops etc.confused Seriously Jim your post smacks of the "Pot calling the kettle black". scratch

BTW I have no idea what Nugget Finder are putting in their coils these days, but for you to go off about their methods of advertising after writing that load of rubbish in GG&T takes the cake in my book. Question scratch

JP
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Post  nero_design Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:02 am

Didn't Minelab licence the use of Litz Wire to NuggetFinder for coil use?
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Post  Jonathan Porter Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:01 pm

nero_design wrote:Didn't Minelab licence the use of Litz Wire to NuggetFinder for coil use?

Not sure about licensing, but my understanding is Minelab haven't patented Litz itself just the application pertaining to coils, in other words if you used a piece of fencing wire and it worked with a Minelab PI then you would in effect be infringing the patent (assuming of course by now the patent hasn't reached its anniversary date).

JP
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Post  Guest Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:15 pm

Yes JP, Granite, alias Jim Foster, will always put down NF compared to Coiltek coils even though Coiltek has just changed their game plan with the Elite and new mono coils which I have used both and liked but I also have a few NF coils that I find brilliant as well. If both Coiltek and NF wish to change their game plans to give us better coils for later machines and improve their sales then why should Jim put NF down just because he USE TO work for Coiltek.


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Post  Guest Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:20 pm

Jonathan Porter wrote:
nero_design wrote:Didn't Minelab licence the use of Litz Wire to NuggetFinder for coil use?

Not sure about licensing, but my understanding is Minelab haven't patented Litz itself just the application pertaining to coils, in other words if you used a piece of fencing wire and it worked with a Minelab PI then you would in effect be infringing the patent (assuming of course by now the patent hasn't reached its anniversary date).

JP
hi jp,
i'm a little confused, if minelab did the patent for litz pertaining to coils,
then if you used litz in coils you would be infringing, but
if you used fencing wire you would not as they do not have the patent
for fencing wire pertaining to coils.
cheers fencejumper

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Post  Pennyweight Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:05 pm

Hi All,
I see that Rohan has a 14E design avail too.....Trackline have one up for auction on Ebay. Looks nice!
On another note, I tried another 6" goldstalker the other day (borrowed from Coiltek in Maryborough) and it was easily twice as quiet as the last one I tried....heaps better! Perhaps a perfect match to the 4000 I was using?
Signal quality was as good as a NF 12E mono that we tested it against. Anyone else using a 6" GS coil?
Cheers, Dwt
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Post  Jonathan Porter Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:27 pm

hi jp,
i'm a little confused, if minelab did the patent for litz pertaining to coils,
then if you used litz in coils you would be infringing, but
if you used fencing wire you would not as they do not have the patent
for fencing wire pertaining to coils.
cheers fencejumper

FJ, it is not the wire that Minelab have patented (to my understanding anyway), but the application of ANY wire that causes the wire to work with a Minelab PI, as far as I know the term Litz is used descriptively to describe its unique properties pertaining to coil manufacture. For instance even though Coiltek do not use Litz they would still be infringing on patent because their coils work with the Minelab machines, I would say that up till now Minelab have shown good faith by allowing both Coiltek and Nugget Finder to continue making coils for their detectors.

Please NOTE this is my own personal understanding of the matter and not by any means an official Minelab statement.

JP
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Post  mulgadansa Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:17 pm

Gday JP
I feel like I'm sticking my head up to get it shot off but what the hell, you've gotta say what's rattling around in your head, if for no other reason than peace of mind. And in all likelihood I'll learn something that will help find some more Au.
Coils, whether they be DD or Mono, all seem to generate the same amount of signal both above and below the coil. Surely there must be some type of shielding that would direct the whole force of the detector below ground rather than wasting it in the atmosphere??
Also, the thing about the ML's is that if you pass the coil within about a metre of a large mass of metal it will "sound off" regardless of a "blade" or "cone" type signal generation pattern. I'm talking about a side looking signal I guess. Having used the machines over the years I kind of think everything that's coming out of the machines is more spherical than anything.
PS Happy Birthday
cheers
Brett
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Post  echidnadigger Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:36 pm

Brett,
Not being to savvy on the fundamental characteristics of how a coil really works, I have asked the same question.
Why cant shielding concentrate all of the signal into the ground?
I'm sure we are not the first to ask. I also have no doubt that it has been worked on at a technical level. It may not be possible or it may be a case of its not possible yet.
Wouldn't it be great though?
Brett.
PS, I see a coil field as being very much the same as that old science experiment at school, where you put a magnet under a piece of paper with iron filings on top. The pattern seems the same. Just thinking different. If the two are the same then the only way I know of to change the field of a magnet is with another magnet.
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Post  Jonathan Porter Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:42 am

echidnadigger wrote:Brett,
Not being to savvy on the fundamental characteristics of how a coil really works, I have asked the same question.
Why cant shielding concentrate all of the signal into the ground?
I'm sure we are not the first to ask. I also have no doubt that it has been worked on at a technical level. It may not be possible or it may be a case of its not possible yet.
Wouldn't it be great though?
Brett.
PS, I see a coil field as being very much the same as that old science experiment at school, where you put a magnet under a piece of paper with iron filings on top. The pattern seems the same. Just thinking different. If the two are the same then the only way I know of to change the field of a magnet is with another magnet.

Couple of things to consider, firstly coils are bidirectional, in other words they are EMF OUT and EMF IN (Electromagnetic Field), the word shielding should answer your question about the magnetic field coming off the top of the coil and any sort of directional behavior due to the SHIELDING, my thoughts would be the shielding protects the incoming information to the coil not so much the outgoing. My understanding of how coils work is very basic but as Brett (Mulgadansa) has said their is more to the coils EMF than just a cone shaped field going directly into the ground, there is an EMF 360 deg around the coil, which would be dictated by the shape of the windings directly opposite. A coil generates (especially a Mono) a field everywhere over the windings, in other words if you inspected a 1 mm section of the winding it would have a field when the coil is charged but very small compared to the coil as a whole (this small section can also receive in its own right, which is what you do when pinpointing or detect a shallow target), when you add the whole of the coil the field is much larger because the field combines as far as the electronics of the detector is concerned.

Basically speaking it all works on distances, each square mm of the coil is capable of transmitting and receiving, if the target is of equal distance from the coil then the resultant reply is equal across the coil, however if the signal is closer to one side or area then the response can appear to warp or change because one section of the coil is going to be receiving a stronger response than others (this is why Monos are harder to pinpoint). Keep in mind if the coil is rotated in relation to the target the field can also seem warped especially when pinpointing down in a hole, which explains why sometimes the response is much louder on one side of the coil than another (left or right hand edge).

Years ago I received a beautiful response (20 plus ounces type response) under a small tree, digging down the signal became slightly fainter but held in there until I was down over a foot, about this time I twigged something was wrong so I paid close attention to the tree and realised there was a bloody dog chain hanging about 2 foot from the ground from one of the branches at just the right height to be heard but not seen, I think you can easily imagine the rest of the proceedings?

I think you can dampen the transmit field somewhat (I would assume the shielding does this to some extent) but not divert it. If a highly conductive target is nearby then the resultant reflected energy (large receive response) could impact on the detectors receive circuit (reflected as in the eddie current generated by the large surface area of the close conductive area swamps the coil), and I would also say the coil has to be Nulled to ignore the shielding to some extent, this is why none solid coils (where the foam insert if not bonded to the outer skin) become noisy over time due to the shielding moving about causing the electronics to SEE the shielding.

I should point out here the fencing wire remark was used to explain the Minelab patent was in effect only about any sort of wire that had a low eddy current loss not litz wire per se. Prior art (prior Minelab patent) Litz wire coils did not satisfy this criteria, for e.g. the one that some cite as being the original "Litz wire patent" is invalid because it used a copper shim screen which meant there was a massive eddy current source!!!! (yes I asked someone who knows lol! ) In other words if a coil using a wire that mimics the low eddy current loss of litz was used and worked on a Minelab machine then it would be infringing on patent pure and simple, and I am sure could be argued very effectively in court if the patent holder so desired (assuming the patent was/is still current).

I also spoke with Rohan Johnson about the new Nugget Finder coils, they will still be using Litz wire just a different spec which will provide better stability overall. The new coils main claim to fame is in the new construction methods where for instance the bracketing is pinned in three places right through the coil for extra strength and rigidity. The bracket is also a whole new design where it is inset into the top surface of the coil. The coils are also much more water resistant (he mentioned leaving a coil in a bucket of water for a few days and it still works perfectly affraid ) thanks to the use of several "O" rings on entry points along with much closer tolerances in construction molding methods which allows for much better sealing.

There is no MAJOR improvement in performance but due to the construction methods and the new variety of Litz wire the coils should show an overall improvement in real world usage (less falsing when the coil is bumped, better stability in threshold and better more precise ground balance (maybe this is what Alluvium has been alluding to on that OTHER forum when he refers to Ground Balance?).

A lot of end users commented about the improvements in the new GoldStalker coils when they came out compared to previous Coiltek Monoloops, for Nugget Finder to improve on their already great coils is going to be something I am looking forward to with relish!! Smile

Regards

JP
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Post  Granite Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:35 am

Good on you JP you can sure be counted on to jump on anyone who disagrees with you, especially on NF coils. I haven't worked for Coiltek for several years. I have no business connections with them or Minelab. I am not out to make any money from selling any detecting gear other than my writing, unlike you. You push NF at every opportunity because you have a business relation with NF and with Minelab. You have your own business and all up you are trying to earn a living detecting and selling ancillary detecting gear: I don't have a problem with any of that so where do you get the unmitigated gaul to accuse me of the pot calling the kettle black.
lol!
As to my theory on the different levels of mineralisation that you disagree with: it is a theory, and it is my opinion. Your opinion is still only your opinion and does not in any way disprove mine. Laughing

As to litz wire. Years ago Minelab tried to patent the use of litze wire in search coils in the US and was deterred by Whites who threatened to sue them. To my knowledge there is no patent on litz wire as to an application in the use of search coils by any company in the world. cheers

And as to my tongue-in-cheek comments in my previous post about litze wire and fibreglass that you alluded to, show me where I was wrong.

I didn't put down NF as a coil, in fact some of their coils are quite good and they should be proud of them. Mind you, Coilteks are better Laughing

So, JP don't get your knickers in a knot everytime someone makes a tongue-in-cheek comment, you give yourslf and your motives away. Rolling Eyes

Cheers, Granite

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Post  robby_h Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:40 pm

You can better understand the patent by conducting a few simple tests.
Place a small mono or DD coil on the ground or a wooden plank well away from any metal objects. Remove the ferrite core from an old tv line output transformer and ground balance the detector to the core. It probably won’t fully null but note the response, fix the ground balance and then place a ~1 gm nugget on the centre of the coil, wait until the threshold stabilises and then pass the core over the nugget. The nugget will then respond as if moving relative to the coil.
Then place a 20c coin on the ground or wooden plank at a distance from the edge of the coil where it would normally give a response if moving. The coin will then respond when the ferrite core is passed over it even though the coil and the coin are both stationary (a poor man’s pin pointing probe?).
Some rocks and ground types mimic the effect of the ferrite core and this leads to some poorly informed characters blaming the detector or SETA for every noise they hear when these noises may be caused by the particular coil they are using and some coil's are definitely noisy!
The wire, the screen, the placement and mass of solder etc all play a part so JP is correct, the patent didn’t just apply to the wire. As he said, others used Litz wire before the patent was written but used detectable screen material etc.

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Post  Guest Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:00 pm

Jim, sorry Granite.
JP gave the Gold Stalker coils a very good positive post on this site when they first came out and you will see that they are used in his DVD in the comparison between the 4000 and the 4500. I think you are wrong for stating that he likes NF coils because he has a business relationship with them and minelab. You sound more like you have a personal grudge against NF or their makers?
Paul

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Post  CJ Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:25 pm

Mate you`ve got to be kidding jimbo is retired little jonnie is still in business out to make a quid which is fair enough so he has to push his own barrow, so you can see where he is coming from, I use commander coils original equipment.
cj

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Post  mulgadansa Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:53 pm

Thanks Brett/JP
Interesting stuff to think about though.
Does anyone know if there is a thin(say <1mm) sheet material around that will completely blank out a detectors signal?
cheers
Brett
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Post  kim Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:22 pm

Hi All

Along with a two year warranty NF slighty widened the coil to stem attachment as to stop the sqeeze for minelab stems. If you are using an Otto stem you might require a spacer to take up the extra room. Water "resistant", more Litz wiring, slight improved performance by way of smoother running and signal.

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Post  Granite Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:56 pm

I would seriously doubt the information below is correct and it is very bad business to trash your competition in this way. I think a public opology and withdrawel of the below statement is order.


Also the NF Advantage coils are waterproof(water resistant) but the CT GoldStalker coils are not if I am correct so this would be a PLUS and a big selling feature in favor for the new NF Advantage coils.

Cheers, Granite.

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Post  echidnadigger Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:12 pm

I dont wish to get involved in an argument here, so please excuse me when I ask, Is the information about water resistance a fact?
Brett.
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Post  Guest Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:15 pm

anyone care to completely submerge their goldstalker in .5 metre of water for 48 Hours for me?
Granite, if the nugget finder is more waterproof than the gold stalker that's a strong selling point for me.

Pointing out an advantage of a product over your competition is not trashing it, it's a common sales tool in every area of industry

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Post  Guest Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:39 am

Right you are Steve and the better the one company can make its product is better for us detecting. It was a shame that when the Gold stalkers came out that they did not have different sizes that were already available in the NF range, eg: 14" & 17" elipp and the 16" round. I already have the NF 17" and 16" so to sell them to buy another makers coil in the same size makes no sense especially when I am very happy with their performance.
Paul

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Post  alchemist Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:14 am

G'day,
I've had my Goldstalker under water numerous times without any worries. When I first receive my coils I check the joint between the upper and lower shells to ensure that the MEK has done a good job melding the shells together. Sometimes I find little bubbles along the join, these need to be sealed with either more MEK or a glue. The only other areas to watch is the cable gland, which should have a rubber seal in it, the restrainer nut needs to be firmly tightened to compress this seal. I also make a point of regularly checking for cracks in the shells. Over time the shell will eventually deteriorate and crack, requiring MEKing, but UV stabilised plastics have become a lot better over the years so it should last for ages so long as it’s not crashed against rocks to often.

I don’t think submerging a new coil in a drum of water for a couple of days means anything really, Its what happens over time to the integrity of the materials used to manufacture the coil, and how the operator treats his gear. Dunking a hot coil into cold water will create quite a lot of suction around all the joints, that would be a real test of a coils durability to stress other than normal shock.

I love the light weight of these coils, but that doesn’t help when submerging them.

Cheers
Grey.

PS. If you can't get Methyl Ethyl Ketone, for fixung cracks and bubbles, Loctite works nicely, as it also disolves the surface ABS to give a strong homogenous join.


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Post  Jonathan Porter Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:28 pm

[quote="Granite"]I would seriously doubt the information below is correct and it is very bad business to trash your competition in this way. I think a public opology and withdrawel of the below statement is order.


Also the NF Advantage coils are waterproof(water resistant) but the CT GoldStalker coils are not if I am correct so this would be a PLUS and a big selling feature in favor for the new NF Advantage coils.

Cheers, Granite.

From what I can gather the new Nugget Finder Advantage coils are very water resistant due to a few factors, one is better molding processes (I assume this means closer tolerances), better glueing techniques (the way the coils tops and bottoms are now sealed when the final glueing stage takes place) and lastly the use of "O" rings on all entry points to the coil (where the cable enters the coil). Rohan has mentioned leaving a coil in a bucket of water for 48 hours and the coil has still worked perfectly (this has been mentioned to me in a telephone conversation and not hacked from a overly sensitive persons thread BTW rabbit ).

Most coils have a certain amount of water resistance (you would not be able to work in dewy grass if they weren't), but it seems Nugget Finder have taken it a step further without going the whole hog as Coiltek have done with their Platypus coils which are solid potted in resin but come at a weight cost.

Hope this helps,

JP
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Post  Granite Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:30 pm

Hi Snottygobble, I plead senility. But I still say no manufacturer should publicly slander anothers gear. Did the person making the post test any CT coils, I seriously doubt it. I for one would be happy to drop my 14" goldstalker in a bucket of water for a week but I don't have it with me at the moment. Give me a month or so to get back to Vic and I'll give a go, if no one beats me too it.

Cheers, Granite... or is it Jim. I get confused these days

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Post  echidnadigger Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:47 pm

I try to be pleasant with most things on forums. On the topic of picking on someones spelling, that's a no go zone for me. We all get the point of the post. Please read past the spelling and read the point of the post.
I'm lucky, I have a spell checker on my google search bar. Anyone got a tip for grammar? LOL. Don'T say word, its to hard.
Brett.
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