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Post  adrian ss on Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:20 pm

What is the point of a 1.6 mtr social distance between people in shops, trains and anywhere else.
If you are standing still in a crowd of socially distanced people then maybe just maybe it might help you not catch the CV from the person in front of you, but if you are walking like most of us will be then in less than a second or two at the most you will have passed through the corona cloud sneezed or coughed out by the carrier in front of you or off to the side. A distance of around 10 or 15 mtrs would be required to be effective and even then you could still encounter the virus floating on the breeze. it does not fall to the ground instantly.

Did you know that people in the Philippines can be fined or tossed in jail if they go outside without a mask on. Our friends in the Philippines relayed that bit of info to us.

I understand Britain has down graded the CV.  If the crap on Google is to be believed.
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Post  moredeep on Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:10 pm

We're off to the super market soon,tomorrow or next day,and trying to figure out the most quiet period to go is a challenge.
We'll have masks on ,alcohol rub at hand,disinfectant wipes for products that need to go into fridge,then every thing else will be wiped a spend a couple of days in the shed.
Shoes off prior to going inside ,clothes off and into wash then shower,super markets would have to be the best point of transmission,every one touching products numerous times Shocked
We haven't been for 2 weeks now,so it's going to be a bit of an epic trip.
And yes Adrian it will be a challenge to keep our distance.I'll take a big stick with me to give people a polite prod What a Face Laughing Laughing


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Post  Nightjar on Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 pm

Moredeep,
You are jesting going to that extreme???????
We are obeying the rules and only going out when absolutely necessary But....
Looks like we are very irresponsible on our patch, admittedly not as many shoppers at the supermarket but have only ever seen a couple wearing masks/gloves etc etc. (20/30 age group)?
Made the mistake of taking up Woolies pensioner offer of shopping 0700 - 0800, what a joke, took me 1 1/2 hours to do what I could normally do in half and hour. Aisles and checkouts choked to the max! **Even with queues of oldies waiting to get in and out, all that was heard was "Excuse me, sorry" **
Returned a few days later mid morning and was in and out in minutes.
Less panic, less media and we'll all get through this!
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Post  moredeep on Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:13 pm

Think of my glitter post nightjar, it'll get onto everything.
Especially if people think that going to the supermarket is a family outing and take the kids as well.
I understand that some single parents cannot avoid not taking children with them.
Extreme yes,but hopefully it's only once a fortnight that this will happen.
I've worked in infectious diseases in the past and I know how well these little critters can pole vault.

cheers moredeep
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Post  adrian ss on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:07 pm

The microbial world is an incredible world and is a  place of many clever arsed nasties and up to 500.000,000 of the bludgers can fit on the head of a pin.

https://microbiologysociety.org/why-microbiology-matters/what-is-microbiology/viruses.html

More interesting reading.
https://aem.asm.org/content/76/12/3943
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Post  moredeep on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:19 pm

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-05/enhanced/webdr03/27/15/enhanced-27648-1401217667-9.jpg
one these outfits might help Laughing

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Post  Nightjar on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:52 pm

OK, OK! I get the message. No more social, forum activities, am in quarantine for next two weeks.
Unf'nbelievable!!!!
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Post  mogy on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:15 am

I have an ex military  biological  warfare suit , I was planning on cutting it in half and using the top with its waterproof wrist seals for use when panning this  works  bril , keeps your arms dry  and the midges off, but  now Im reconsidering I could do the shopping in it  !!,
Or may be just get the drysuit out …. but that's going a bit too far ? but then again im sure no one would  risk  coming near the nutter in a drysuit

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Post  straight wire on Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:23 am

In a world of insanity there is at least one sane country left in this world - Sweden.
Sweden has taken a different approach to the coronavirus than the rest of the world, allowing life to go on as normal
with a few exceptions.
Swedes are still going to night clubs, hanging out with friends and enjoying life socializing.
"We who are adults need to be exactly that ;adults. Not spread panic or rumors" said prime minister
Stefan Lofven, in a televised address to the country last weekend.
And while the country has limited gatherings to 50 people as of Sunday, the government is largely leaving decisions over self-isolation
and social distancing up to the individual citizens.
Does anybody want to bet me that their infection and death rates wont be much higher, and maybe even lower than other European
countries with full lockdowns and quarantining of their citizens?
And at the end of all this they will still have a relatively healthy economy and small businesses, as well as less suicides and
destroyed lives and business than we will have here!

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Post  adrian ss on Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:08 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52076293

Unlike the rest of the world that has allowed the economy to collapse in a massive snowballing pile of rubbish, Sweden is still maintaining their economy and employment... It will be interesting to see how things pan out over there.

It is not the virus that has caused the Western world to go into lock down with a plummeting economy, it is the actions taken by our leaders that are the direct cause of our employment and economic plight.

Interesting that 50% of Sweden households consist of just one person.

This is interesting:
Although slightly out of date (17 Mar 2020 )
https://theconversation.com/why-are-there-so-few-coronavirus-cases-in-russia-and-africa-133591
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Post  planetcare on Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:44 am

straight wire wrote:In a world of insanity there is at least one sane country left in this world - Sweden.
Sweden has taken a different approach to the coronavirus  than the rest of the world, allowing life to go on as normal
with a few exceptions.
Swedes are still going to night clubs, hanging out with friends and enjoying life socializing.
"We who are adults need to be exactly that ;adults. Not spread panic or rumors" said prime minister
Stefan Lofven, in a televised address to the country last weekend.
And while the country has limited gatherings to 50 people as of Sunday, the government is largely leaving decisions over self-isolation
and social distancing up to the individual citizens.
Does anybody want to bet me that their infection and death rates wont be much higher, and maybe even lower than other European
countries with full lockdowns and quarantining of their citizens?
And at the end of all this they will still have a relatively healthy economy and small businesses, as well as less suicides and
destroyed lives and business than we will have here!

latest figures for Sweden
4,435 infections, 407 new cases, 180 deaths, 34 new deaths
For Australia
4,763 infections,303 new cases, 20 deaths, one new death

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Post  straight wire on Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:57 am

planetcare wrote:
straight wire wrote:In a world of insanity there is at least one sane country left in this world - Sweden.
Sweden has taken a different approach to the coronavirus  than the rest of the world, allowing life to go on as normal
with a few exceptions.
Swedes are still going to night clubs, hanging out with friends and enjoying life socializing.
"We who are adults need to be exactly that ;adults. Not spread panic or rumors" said prime minister
Stefan Lofven, in a televised address to the country last weekend.
And while the country has limited gatherings to 50 people as of Sunday, the government is largely leaving decisions over self-isolation
and social distancing up to the individual citizens.
Does anybody want to bet me that their infection and death rates wont be much higher, and maybe even lower than other European
countries with full lockdowns and quarantining of their citizens?
And at the end of all this they will still have a relatively healthy economy and small businesses, as well as less suicides and
destroyed lives and business than we will have here!

latest figures for Sweden
4,435 infections, 407 new cases, 180 deaths, 34 new deaths
For Australia
4,763 infections,303 new cases, 20 deaths, one new death

Why don't you quote the Swedish figures in context of other European figures for the coronavirus?
Being a landlocked European country in the colder months is different to the Island continent of Australia in the warmer months!
Coming from a retired scientist, I was expecting a more intelligent reply.





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Post  planetcare on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:01 pm

straight wire wrote:
planetcare wrote:
straight wire wrote:In a world of insanity there is at least one sane country left in this world - Sweden.
Sweden has taken a different approach to the coronavirus  than the rest of the world, allowing life to go on as normal
with a few exceptions.
Swedes are still going to night clubs, hanging out with friends and enjoying life socializing.
"We who are adults need to be exactly that ;adults. Not spread panic or rumors" said prime minister
Stefan Lofven, in a televised address to the country last weekend.
And while the country has limited gatherings to 50 people as of Sunday, the government is largely leaving decisions over self-isolation
and social distancing up to the individual citizens.
Does anybody want to bet me that their infection and death rates wont be much higher, and maybe even lower than other European
countries with full lockdowns and quarantining of their citizens?
And at the end of all this they will still have a relatively healthy economy and small businesses, as well as less suicides and
destroyed lives and business than we will have here!

latest figures for Sweden
4,435 infections, 407 new cases, 180 deaths, 34 new deaths
For Australia
4,763 infections,303 new cases, 20 deaths, one new death

Why don't you quote the Swedish figures in context of other European figures for the coronavirus?
Being a landlocked European country in the colder months is different to the Island continent of Australia in the warmer months!
Coming from a retired scientist, I was expecting a more intelligent reply.





Just pointing out that you are talking rubbish again as you did elsewhere.Sweden is heading for an Italian type corona virus tsunami!

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Post  planetcare on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:36 pm

Total Corona cases per million of population
Italy 1750
Spain 2052
France 799
Belgium 1102
Norway 856
Sweden 439
Australia 187
Denmark 494
So Sweden is going ok at the moment but its early days and they are most likely in the earliest infection phase.The next 2 weeks will tell the real story.I expect that that Sweden's corona cases/ million will rise significantly if they continue with their present policies which have been strongly criticized by some Swedish epidemiologists.


Last edited by planetcare on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:02 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post  Kon61gold on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:01 pm

Lets keep it civil & in perspective here gents. Leaving it up to the people to decide whats best for them? Shocked Who are the Swedes kidding? for even sheep need a shepherd to guide them in a time of danger/crisis.   Considering the type of virus in question here, how can it not continue to spread amongst the Swedes. Its just that each nations government takes what they believe to be the right course of action, for their people at that time, until things change or get out of hand, forcing them to introduce new changes. Did not Italy first do the same? & now they're paying a hefty price for their slow action or should I say inaction.
This type of virus is not about the "wait & see" for that's exactly what it wants people to do & let the COVID-19 do the rest.
Even when we think we've got it under control here in Australia, it is not a virus to drop ones guard against to soon, to quickly, for it can again rear its ugly head, where one least expects it to & the threat of spread begins all over again.
What our government has done by introducing strict measures/precautions (& even though we don't like them or think we don't need them) are proving to be the right course of action, (as stats so far seem to be showing) as compared to the rest of the world.
Now, as for the steps/procedures taken, towards keeping our economy alive, well that's a problem we all have to deal with sooner or later, but the immediate saving of lives, must come first.  

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Post  adrian ss on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:28 pm

Maybe the virus is not spreading rapidly in Australia because our average population density is only 3.1 persons per square k.
Sweden is 64 per sq mile   = 2.6 sq k approx or spreading 7,9 times faster than in Australia.
America density is 36 people per sq k. Therefore the virus will spread 12 times faster than in Australia

Italy is 206 per sq k.   So theoretically the virus will spread  in Italy 66 times faster than in Australia.....Not surprising that the death rate in Italy is so high.


Last edited by adrian ss on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:39 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post  planetcare on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:31 pm

Kon61gold wrote:Who are the Swedes kidding? for even sheep need a shepherd to guide them in a time of danger/crisis.   Considering the type of virus in question here, how can it not continue to spread amongst the Swedes. Its just that each nations government takes what they believe to be the right course of action, for their people at that time, until things change or get out of hand, forcing them to introduce new changes. Did not Italy first do the same? & now they're paying a hefty price for their slow action or should I say inaction.
This type of virus is not about the "wait & see" for that's exactly what it wants people to do & let the COVID-19 do the rest.
Even when we think we've got it under control here in Australia, it is not a virus to drop ones guard against to soon, to quickly, for it can again rear its ugly head, where one least expects it to & the threat of spread begins all over again.
What our government has done by introducing strict measures/precautions (& even though we don't like them or think we don't need them) are proving to be the right course of action, (as stats so far seem to be showing) as compared to the rest of the world.
Now, as for the steps/procedures taken, towards keeping our economy alive, well that's a problem we all have to deal with sooner or later, but the immediate saving of lives, must come first.  

Kon. T25

Well said Kon! You have nailed the key issues perfectly! cheers

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Post  planetcare on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:37 pm

adrian ss wrote:Maybe the virus is not spreading rapidly in Australia because our average population density is only 3.1 persons per square k.
Sweden is 64 per sq mile   = 2.6 sq k approx or 7,9 times faster than in Australia

Italy is 206 per sq k.   So theoretically the virus will spread  in Italy 66 times faster than in Australia.

You are correct population density is one of the many variables that controls the infection rate.Social distancing becomes much harder in high population densities.This is why their is great concern about what is going to happen in Indonesia.

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Post  adrian ss on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:48 pm

The population density of Indonesia is approx half that of Italy. But if the virus takes hold there then things will get a bit messy due to the enormous number of people. who are not too fussed about hygine
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Post  planetcare on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:52 pm

adrian ss wrote:But if the virus takes hold there then things will get a bit messy due to the enormous number of people. who are not too fussed about hygine
A lot of Indonesians are not too fussed either about social distancing i suspect. If the Gov decides to really clamp down then their could be big trouble indeed.

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Post  Kon61gold on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:58 pm

Not theoretically, but spot on Adrian. 66 times faster, if people do not take nor adhere to all necessary precautions, towards stopping the spread of transmission. This is why nations today across the world today, have come to realise, that a nations strength/might/power, no longer relies on the amount of foot soldiers it has on the ground anymore, but in their technologically advanced, weapons of "mass" destruction, which in turn, keeps everyone in their place.

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Post  moredeep on Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:22 pm

Did the big super market shop today,my wife and I were the only two freaks in there, but hey we felt mighty safe.
such a relief to be wearing a mask,GET ONE IF YOU CAN!!
Twas orderly conduct, a few feral people and kids running around,can't expect everything I guess.
That's over for a few more weeks.


cheers moredeep
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Post  Jen on Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:41 pm

I went to the supermarket as well today
Was so different to the last week. As last week they were making us sanitise our hands, and wiping down the trolleys.
Not today.  (I did wipe my trolly down.)
Was fairly quiet we all kept our distance.
Until we got to the cash register’s. The call out to open a couple more came over the loud speaker.  none opened up. So there we all stood getting squashed up together.
They won’t touch our bags. Just the food we brought. So self packaging. Which I was more then happy to do.
You would think the workers should be wearing gloves before touching our food.

Also they had a worker spraying and wiping down the eftpos machines. After use..  Great idea.

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Post  moredeep on Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:08 pm

unfortunately,there is no universal standards,our check out lady had gloves on but didn't sanitize after each customer,therefore transmission of cross contamination continues from
previous customers stuff.
That's why we disinfected all surfaces when we got home.
shopping bags are now in iso for several days.
I will contact super market tomorrow to ask that check out people alcohol wash [even with gloves on] to prevent cross contamination .
Like I stated if you have a mask wear it ,you'll feel a lot safer ,plus you wont touch your gob Laughing

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Post  Mechanic on Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:55 pm

moredeep wrote:unfortunately,there is no universal standards,our check out lady had gloves on but didn't sanitize after each customer,therefore transmission of cross contamination continues from
previous customers stuff.
That's why we disinfected all surfaces when we got home.
shopping bags are now in iso for several days.
I will contact super market tomorrow to ask that check out people alcohol wash [even with gloves on] to prevent cross contamination .
Like I stated if you have a mask wear it ,you'll feel a lot safer ,plus you wont touch your gob Laughing

Cheers  moredeep
The best I have seen was a clip from China that showed the checkout attendants working from within a big ventilated plastic bag serving customers. This way the attendants are at much less risk of becoming infected.

The biggest problem I see is that the places we are still allowed to go will become hubs for infection.
The checkout attendants will catch it and then pass it on to the customers that have to come in every few days to top up their supplies as a normal shop these days is classed(by those who don't know how to prepare and keep more food than a days worth) as panic buying.
Same with the fuel stations and the same for the fresh fruit and veg markets. When it gets in to the fruit and veg markets, be prepared, lack of dunny paper will be the least of our worries.

My wife and I have been dropping supplies of to the mother in law as she is 80 and has blood pressure problems, so is banned from leaving the house. When we go up to drop off the food, we make no contact, we don't go in the house, we treat it as if we are infected. The shopping goes into her bungalow in the freezer and non perishables are stored out there too for 10 days before she is allowed to enter and collect. The fresh food has to go into the house, but she is under strict instructions to wash everything and her hands after.
She was a nurse and was trained in infection control and hates the suggestion to sneeze into ones elbow as you never wash your elbow throughout the day so everytime you touch your elbow you get more goondies on your hand.
In my opinion, all of the people in the high risk category should be allowed to buy as much from the shops as they want so they don't have to come back to buy more in 3 days. Same with medications too. We got a script filled for her but they would only supply 30 days worth. So in 30 days when the situation will be much worse either she has to venture out into the wild to get more(nope not going to happen hell or high water) or we need to travel up there again(if we can still leave Werribee). Not very well though out by those in power.

Stay safe out there people. For those of you who think this virus and getting confined to your home is something more sinister, as I have to continue working during this, if I see any suspicious activity while I am traveling to and from work, I'll let you all know, provided the internet still works Shocked affraid

Cheers Mick

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Post  Axtyr on Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:35 am

Hi all.

Personally I don't see the point in gloves for anyone. They're fine when you first put them one but after that almost useless, especially for the checkout people UNLESS they wash them after every purchase.

The attendant touches the items as they scan them and if the items are infected, without cleaning the gloves, the virus passes to the next persons groceries. How long are the gloves worn? Do they change them after every transaction? At the end of the day with all that build up of germs, whether the usual ones or the virus, the person takes them off and probably transfers the germs directly to their hands. The user needs to wash their hands after removing the gloves.

At the butchers near me the checkout person was wearing gloves and scanned the meat packages then moved to the end then took my money and handed me the change. I am sure the meat, no matter how well packaged, is germ free.

G'day Mick. Look after yourself out there.

Regards Axtyr.

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Post  PeterInSa on Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:05 pm

Masks


In my opinion, I think the government is not pushing for the public to wear masks, because they are in short supply, and I think in Oz, people think the wearer has a virus and not that the wearer is protecting him/herself from others with the virus. Content of an email I received today....
(I don't know if the stats are true, its in a newspaper so it must be???????)

Check out the following link …
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/hong-kong-coronavirus-cases-deaths-105634996.html

… especially the following sentences ..
“Despite its proximity to mainland China, Hong Kong has recorded just 714 coronavirus cases and only four deaths.”
.. and
“A survey found more than 97% of Hong Kong people use face masks to prevent themselves from droplets and the infection.
“We do it ourselves, no matter what the government says. In January, when the government said there is no evidence of human-to-human transmission, no one listened.
“The government also made no recommendation for face masks, [yet] 97% of our citizens wear face masks.”

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Post  Alan WA on Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:46 pm


Check out what's happening in the Czech Republic.
I've just come back from there.
Everyone has been wearing masks for a few weeks.
Scarf or home made will do.

No panic in the street or panic buying . Super markets fully stocked.
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Post  moredeep on Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:13 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Centre_for_Infectious_Diseases
Singapore was way ahead of every body,I think they new something bigger and better than SARS1 was around the corner.
It was a case of when not if.


cheers  moredeep
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Post  pablop on Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:57 am

moredeep wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Centre_for_Infectious_Diseases
Singapore was way ahead of every body,I think they new something bigger and better than SARS1 was around the corner.
It was a case of when not if.


cheers  moredeep

I was stuck in Singapore for the whole time of the SARS outbreak, but was able to work as normal. There was a small team that walked around the work building all day with sanitising spray and wipes, cleaning handles and all flat services where people were likely to have put their hands.
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