The new and the older

Hi,
There are so many all conquering Z,s and mighty GPX,s in use now,, does that mean all detectors older than these are now redundant and only fit to be framed and hung on the wall or put in a dim corner of the shed and forgotten???? noyungan

No noyungan. It just means that those older detectors, better be covering ground, other than what the GPZ's/GPX's have already gone over. The problem is, the most productive looking ground, enhancing ones chances of finding gold nowdays, has most likely been gone over. In other words, start framing the older model detectors, but don't place them up on a wall to be seen as a memory of the good times of the past, instead, place them in the darkest corner of ones shed, invisible to the naked eye from any angle, so that one may never be tempted to take them out for a swing of the coil, in the hope of finding good gold once again.
Now on another more positive note & the thing that keeps me going, (even though knowing that most the time, I'm covering ground that's been flogged by the many), is not to worry about whats already been found/taken out of the ground, but what still remains to be found, for nobody gets it all.

Cheers Kon.

Noyungan  Another way of looking at the difference between old and new detectors is the technology used to find gold. The gold never changes nor does the ground. The only thing that changes is the technology to find it. When the earlier model detectors came out they were the state of the art in technology of the day. And they did find gold. So if you look at it that way there is no reason that those earlier machines still can't find gold.
But in saying that, Kon61 is right. Gold is harder to find now, as detectors have been around since the mid to late 1970's, and most areas of the goldfield have at one stage had a detector over it. Gold is not like mushrooms, it doesn't reproduce it self each year. Hence the reason for the new technology. The older machines found the bigger pieces and left the small one's behind that it could not pick up. Hence the reason for the new technology machines to find those small ones and the bigger gold at the same time. The shallow gold has mostly gone now because of the earlier machines. I know an old chap up here in Maryborough who is still running around with his very first detector, a Minelab 1700 and still finds gold. But he admits that it is getting harder. 
wombat

Hi
The above is true, but what must be remembered is that with Minelab machines (the machine of choice for professional detecting.That these are designer machines. For the Sd to gpx series a standard platform was modified and advanced.Each one of these stages didnt take all the capabilities of the previous and add to the next ie you could work an area with an sd2200 for example, then go over it with a gp3000.There would be gold that both could find and gold that only the 2200 could find and vice versa.
To say that the GPZ 7000 is all conquering is incorrect. For large deep gold it comes up against the sd series of machines so it goes back to sd v gp scenario. You will note there hasnt been a flood of 30 ounce plus nuggets found.Thats not to say it not a great machine.
Minelab as well as producing the world best detectors has to stay in business. To keep turnover and attract new customers there will alway be something new.
Ie the next GPZ machine wont have the ergonomics of a brick.That alone will ensure success, which makes you wonder why they designed it like a brick in the first place.The answer to that is simple, so they could bring out one  that isnt.
If economics stops anyone parting out 10k to get into this hobby and you have to go to an earlier model a good thing to remember as is mentioned above the ground hasnt changed and no minelab machine carries all the capabilities of the previous model.
Cheers Dig

I thought it noteworthy that the old chap mentioned by Wombat continues to use the ancient 1700 and finds gold albeit harder to find..Has he got the capabilities of the 1700 so down pat and understands them to an extraordinary degree and finds continue to come his way???. Good on him!!
Some posters make the comment that the earth doesn't change.. It's technology that changes!!
That comment about the earth caused me to recall past happenings with clay.. (!) my mothers house,, 1920 vintage),,was on black clay.. During the 1940's the floor became out of level,, the 6 foot stumps seemed to move, and when I took out a corner post I observed the original earth mark was inches higher than the then position and the post was now only 18 inches in the ground .. Having travelled over black clay soils around Dalby the fence posts were all leaning and close examination proved they were rising...Two days ago in my backyard a flattish stone about 7x3 inches was sun baking on the black clay ground. Over the 13 years I've lived here and mowing the grass that stone(rock) had a small section visible and in recent times when mowing I noticed the stone was becoming more visible and two days ago it was virtually on top of the ground but is now gone to the tip!!!
What is the point I'm making????? Well clays expand and contract which process makes me wonder if that is why mum's house got out of level,, the Darling Downs are plagued with fence posts and power poles leaning every which way and some rock in my back yard made a gradual rise to the surface..
Now for the juicy bit..... A couple years ago parts of the GT had a lot of rain and perhaps two years later several good size nuggets were shown me and no more since..... The GT has lot of clay near the surface and that clay ,like all clays, expands and contracts.... Did the clay push those nuggets to detectable reach ?????? After all the GT has had a detector flogging... Am I romancing or is there an element of truth in my observations ?????? Any comments on the not so firma terra...noyungan

G'day noyangan

The not so "firma terra" as you put it, is governed by the process of weathering.
The rains act in a manner not much different to a flowing River/Creek, acting like a hydraulic sluice, removing & shifting the much lighter/softer surface material, which covers the heavier material/rock bellow, but at a much slower rate, pending on gravity & or the degree of ground incline/decline. It is not so much that the clay pushes up & exposes the rock or any other heavier material buried bellow, as much as the rain itself, constantly running down & over,  washing off the surrounding shallow surface dirt (sand,silt,soil etc) eventually exposing & bringing to light, the much heavier materials sitting in/on the clay pan or bedrock bellow. This is why the old timers use to find gold by "specking" (eyeballing) straight after the rains. (plus the fact that nuggety gold was much more prevalent/prolific to be found by specking, back in those days, as compared to today).

Cheers Kon.  

The Wish List.

Re; New detectors, (Wants and needs).

After seeing some of the rubbish that has been posted on other forums, about blokes finding these smaller pieces of gold (under 10 grams) down at 2’feet deep, BS, they must have rubber rulers.

There are limitations with any detector finding small gold at depth; mainly it depends on the size of the coil used, and the chosen settings.  

I think the subject if fairly straight forward; we can all see the limitations of what we are using now.
Where these current detectors have many good points, as well as the not so good, but they have served us all well over the years, (That is until now).  

Here we are, once again with many operators facing another gold drought, and we see most people chasing tiny crumbs of gold, and the new comers to detecting, thinking this is the norm.

I see the newbies all excitedly posting photos on the forums, of their half dozen or so fly dirt pieces sitting upon a 5-cent coin, (that some of them seem to find on each outing).
That is really a road to nowhere, also even some old prospectors are grumbling about the lack of decent gold finds, with most of them saying, and a lot thinking that it’s all gone.

How wrong they are, this is where a new approach is now needed, we want a new detector that first and foremost must handle the mineralisation better. This surely is one of the keys to start it all off again, secondly we want a machine that detects deeper, let us see a minimum extra increase of 300mm (1’foot) for starters.

Thirdly, it’s no good hearing clear signal responses at these new-found depths, without some form of discrimination. Perhaps having some type of Magnetometer, to at least show it is ferrous metal.

The way I see it is, we have detectors now that find gold down to the size of a mere pins head and in hot mineralised soils.                                                                                                                                
We don’t need any more detectors like that, so even if this New mythical detector were to miss the 1 gram and under size pieces, who cares? We already have the means to get that type of gold, even if the base line was raised up to 1oz. It would not trouble me if any new detector started responding at 1oz, because if you had both types detectors, you then have the best of both worlds.

It all boils down to having a detector to reach this deeper larger undetected gold in hot ground, which in most cases means we will still have to use a fairly big coil to accomplish it.
(Say, nothing under a 16” inch coil in size).

Sure, you can say things like, any New detector has to outdo a GPX 5000 and the GPZ 7000, yet still find mainly gold and coins, plus to hope it will at least discriminate like a VLF detector etc.

So, let’s really look at what we want or wish for, to help us through life in these harder times, no one is presently immune, (Except the Pollies), to all the financial worries we are facing across Australia and the World.                                                                                                                          

People may have to look at their gold detecting being more than just as a hobby, and maybe sooner than they think.

We are all looking for a detector that will find any valuable commodity, be it gold or treasure, it has to be mostly that our finds have more weight, (value), and in quantities well above what we are finding today.

Let us get down to basics, naturally better performance is what we need, it can be a basic looking detector with no frills, as long as it does the job we all want.

The list of features should cover most aspects, like being of a light weight, hopefully half that of a current M/Lab machines, all in an ergonomically well-balanced and durable setup.
Be water resistant (minimum), and quiet running, (ground mineral wise), also with a very minimum amount of EMI effects, these are definitely a necessity.  

It should be an all in one detector which is free from any restrictions, a detector without anything separate from the machine as a whole. (Including light-weight battery/ sender unit etc).
The only thing then that’s required to be carried, should be a Pick and Head-phones or a Speaker, maybe a spare small light weight battery in a pouch.                                                                                                                                                    

It would be sensible for this new detector to be able to run all our existing coils, yet still be able to cater for any new coil designs that may surface in the future.
Discrimination to full depth may only be a dream and it still may come true??

=======================================================================================================

Summary:  

Even with the continual thrashing our goldfields have had over many years, there would still be lots more gold to be found, perhaps as much or more than has previously been detected up until now, but there will be much more digging involved this time, I’m sure of that.

Imagine numerous gold nuggets of all sizes showing up again, just like when the SD 2000 was released in 1995, and most likely with some larger nuggets to the fore.  

It could mean that you may have to pair up with a big strong mate, to share all that deep digging (and to also split the spoils), but it would be a darn sight better, than digging fly poop like today.


My thoughts. Ozgold.

noyungan wrote:Hi,
   There are so many all conquering Z,s and mighty GPX,s in use now,, does that mean all detectors older than these are now redundant and only fit to be framed and hung on the wall or put in a dim corner of the shed and forgotten????  noyungan

Common question and I am sure you know the answer...my take for what it's worth.

If I get a young fella come to me and say he want's to go prospecting but doesn't have the money for the gear I will tell them to forget the detector, pick up a couple of dishes and tubs and go and learn the ropes. You do not need to spend 10k on a detector to go prospecting.

Second point....What does it take to find gold regularly with a detector??? In my opinion...detector 30-40%...detector operator 60-70%...it's always the skill of the operator/prospector that will be the key...in my opinion.

noyungan wrote:Hi,
   There are so many all conquering Z,s and mighty GPX,s in use now,, does that mean all detectors older than these are now redundant and only fit to be framed and hung on the wall or put in a dim corner of the shed and forgotten????  noyungan

G'day

I don't think that is necessarily correct, as the truth is that earlier model detectors in the hands of experienced operators are still out there finding good gold, some of the reason of how earlier model detectors are seen is the consequence of the way new detectors have been marketed, and because of the hype that goes on surrounding a new models release, for some reason people believing the hype will seize on the idea that it will outdo anything else, and therefore they will scoff at the idea that a previous model machine would be anywhere still as capable and then see it as being redundant, its more likely that its simply because many of these people have never done any good with whatever they have used in the past anyway, the way new machines are marketed is so that they appeal to the inner desire of all of us to find more gold and install the belief that we can do better if we buy one.

The detector is only a small part of the overall picture and is only one tooth in the cog, no matter if you have the latest and greatest machine if you don't know how to use it, you lack perseverance, have a limited attention span, are too unfit to walk the ground or simply too lazy, you will never do any good unless you are a complete tin ass, finding gold is a learned process and can take many years and dozens of trips to get to the point where you will find consistent gold, and for those that scoff at people who chase small gold I can tell you this sometimes you simply have to take what's available and you have to take the grams to get the ounces, this is the bread and butter gold of professional prospectors and experienced part timers alike, and even the old timers recognised that there are huge quantities of small gold nuggets as apposed to larger ones so that's why dry blowing was so successful, if the old timers had an sdc2300 available back then to work these areas most would have been satisfied to suck up anything of colour as it put food on the table, in our case it might simply pay the fuel bill for the trip, but at the end of the day if you can do that with regularity and you find a clunker every now and again then you are doing well and better than most.

cheers

au-fever

Chase small gold...the big ones will find you'

Hi,
Well this topic has certainly put a big downer on my poor old GP 3500. People forget that this detector was the most powerful made ( according to Minelab) until the digital ones rocked up. There was a reason why it was the best. I don't need to go into that as good detector operator will know!
Now I know why I haven't had one offer to buy it ( Check "For Sale " section) Almost 800 views, every body wants the latest. I certainly won't be hanging it up, just need to find new ground. I have advertised it on Gumtree & now I might have no choice but to put it in " Flea Bay" & see how high the auction price may creep up to?
Okay Cheers

Hello goldtalkleonora.

With your above comment, Quote: Chase small gold...the big ones will find you'

With respect, that comment in not quite right, as in my opinion and many other seasoned prospectors that I know, the point put in my above post in regards to chasing small gold is this.

Many detector operators today use very small coils, where their intention is to target the smaller gold, but what most don’t realize is that you are restricting yourself to finding the better and deeper gold we all seek.

Small coils are sensitive to small gold that’s for sure, yet they are quite restricted when it comes to depth in hot ground, so if you chase small bits of gold using a small coil you will rarely find anything of decent size deep, unless you are a tin bum as au- fever suggests.

Au-fever’s comment re: (and for those that scoff at people who chase small gold). Mate I hope you don’t think I am knocking the small gold prospectors, good luck to them, all I want to get across is, they can do better with a little advice from an old timer and his mates.


The experienced operators I know, have found through their years of experience, that if you always use a large round coil say, one of at least 14” inches across, and hopefully one larger, up to 18”in or 20” ins.

You will find that your gold size and weight will increase, and you will also find a lot of that small gold along the way too, sure you may miss a few tiddlers, but you can cover a darn site more ground over a day.

When using a bigger coil, most will find that the amount of small gold found will still be similar, perhaps not so many pieces but the weight will be there.

Detecting is a numbers game as most know, the more area covered in a day, the more chance of finding your next decent piece.                                                                                                                                                    

Remember if you look for small gold with a smaller coil, you will certainly find gold alright, and unfortunately, it’s more than likely that is all you will get.

Just some food for thought, especially for the new comers to detecting.

Cheers and good luck.

Ozgold 041

Hi everyone, you wont miss much small gold if you choose to use bigger coils. Last winter i spent a lot of days detecting in the GT with my gpx4500 and using a 14" coiltek elite coil. I found some nice gold ranging from 1gram up to 20grams. I also found many small pieces under .2 of a gram. One day i got a faint signal on a mullock heap which was covered in green grass, after chipping of the grass the signal was better. I scraped off about 1" of wet clay and quartz gravel and the signal was still on the heap so scraped off another 1" of clay and the target was out. It took a few minutes to find it in the scoop because it only weighed .04 of a gram. The 14" elite gives good depth on bigger nuggets but will still find little bits under .2grams. I also found a 1819 one shilling down about knee deep in a mullock heap with this coil. Cheers Grumpy. (Doug).

G'day

While its commonly believed that you will only get small gold with a small coil that's not always the case, some of the bigger nuggets that I have found have been found with a small 8" round coil and have been very deep, the signal put out from a small coil is tight and compact and can penetrate the ground very well, the other factor with a small coil is that you get far less feedback than you do with a big coil that will in some cases make it easier to hear the response from the target, in situations where you are working rocky rubbly or scrubby ground or in spinifex country a small coil will allow you to get it closer to the ground and in to tighter areas where gold can hide, that is often missed with a big coil, coils are just tools and its knowing where and when to use a different coil that will make the difference to your finds, patch finding is not always about landing a clunker first up its about looking for indicators, that first piece that will pull you up and tell you that you could be on to a patch, almost every patch that I have found has started this way with a small piece then so on, sure I have walked on to random bigger nuggets but more times than I can remember they turn out to be loners.

Once you are on to what you believe is a patch then its time to work the area systematically using whatever size and shape coils you have at your disposal, I don't disbelieve anything others say about coils but I do know from my own experiences and significant gold finds that no one coil will do everything and big coils do miss gold depending on the type and size of the nugget, I have lost count of how many pieces I have taken out of other peoples dig holes, and how much gold I have taken out of so called worked patches, the fact is if you work a spot using all the coils at your disposal then at least you should be fairly confident that you have cleaned it out.

My method is simple, If I am patch hunting I require several things, a lightweight coil that I can swing for hours on end, that has good ground coverage,and more importantly high sensitivity, so I am not that concerned about it being a super deep coil, and depending on the ground if its open and fairly clean I would probably use my 14x9 NF advantage mono or 14" round NF sl mono, on my 4500, if I am targeting a hillside or rocky scrubby area then I would be using my minelab 8" super goldsearch mono or 12x7 NF advantage mono, using my my 4500 or my 2300, in these areas when you don't know if there's gold there or not you are just trying to get that indicator like I said before, but once you know there's gold there then you can be more concerned about trying other coils that would also suit the ground.

Also I have found that every detector I have owned and I have had everything from a garrett ground hog and deep seeker, through to the gpx5000, that as far as the pi minelab detectors go some coils will work better on some models than they will on others, which each detector I have owned I have gone though the process of trial and elimination, buying and trying coils that I thought would be useful, then narrowing it down to maybe 5-6 that I would carry and maybe 3 of those that I would use pretty much all the time, like I said the coils are just tools and some will suit an areas and the type of gold there better than others, don't be lazy with trying your coils because it can make all the difference between doing well or missing gold.

cheers

au-fever

Everything in life evolve, something faster than others, especially if technology is involved, so in my opinion the SD, GP, metal detectors belong to a museum. With the increase of the gold price thousand of people bought a metal detector, new technology, restrictions on areas available for prospecting, all these factors contributed to find good gold more and more difficult even with the latest metal detectors, so that is why I think that old technology make it even harder. I started with a SD2200d 15 years go, I had my share of fun, I went through
5 different machines, now I have a 7000 and my wife an SDC, we still have fun, but the good old days are long gone.

"Sold " my XT 18000 on E-bay but he does not want to pay up .... yes, he lives in Victoria ....

Hello au-fever.                                                                            

Your Quotes:    While it’s commonly believed that you will only get small gold with a small coil that's not always the case, some of the bigger nuggets that I have found, have been with a small 8" round coil and some have been very deep.

Yes au-fever that happens sometimes, but I still don’t think you understand my point in regards to small coils. What I am saying is they do not go anywhere near as deep as you may think, ask Eric Foster what the limitations of a small coil are.

The signal put out from a small coil is tight and compact and can penetrate the ground very well, the other factor with a small coil is that you get far less feedback than you do with a big coil.

With your theory here, a small coil is tight and compact and can penetrate the ground very well.
This is only up to a point, what happens is that compact field is so strong it creates an adverse reaction in the highly mineralised ground, usually by turning the field and dispersing it out to the sides.

Basically, any small coil is fairly limited on depth, usually only penetrating the ground to a depth of approximately the width of the coil used, this will vary too depending on the soil mineralisation you are on.

Another fact is larger coils get less ground noise, it’s because their field is not as concentrated as a small coil, and therefore is slightly less sensitive as it operates over a wider area. (Less mineral reaction).

However, larger coils are more susceptible to EMI noise, so one has to keep the coil flat when sweeping it and try not tilt or raise the edges as much as you can.

Coils are just tools and its knowing where and when to use a different coil, that will make the difference to your finds.

Coils are much more than just tools, like they say Coils ain’t just Coils.                                                                                  .                                                                                                                                                                                    
You are underestimating their worth, here’s a little tip for you, the coil on a PI detector is just as important as the control box is.                                                                                                                                                                
In fact, this is where your next big jump in technology will come from, a coil can now be made to far outdo what we have a present, and this is used on a GPX detector.

Patch finding is not always about landing a clunker first up its about looking for indicators, a first piece that will pull you up and tell you that you could be on to a patch.  My method is simple, If I am patch hunting I require several things, a lightweight coil that I can swing for hours on end, that has good ground coverage, and more importantly high sensitivity.

So, I am not that concerned about it being a super deep coil, and depending on the ground, if it’s open and fairly clean I would probably use my 14x9 NF advantage mono, or 14" round NF SL mono, on my 4500.

If I am targeting a hillside or rocky scrubby area then I would be using my Minelab 8" Super/ goldsearch mono, or 12x7 NF advantage mono, using my 4500.                                                                                                    

In the West, I agree when Patch-Finding you need a coil to suit the conditions of your surroundings, in my experience detecting there, the areas are so vast and many in most cases, this is where a large light-weight spoke mono is the go.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Most ground is fairly shallow, so your set-up to find that first smaller or larger nugget to start you off.

This is where ground coverage comes into play, covering more ground increases your chances of a patch.

Big Coils find lots of small gold, even under half a gram, au-fever the exception is when detecting on rough hillsides, you are naturally forced to come down in coil size.

I have had everything from a Garrett ground hog, and Deep seeker, through to the GPX 5000.

I started in 1980 with a Deep-seeker, then a Garrett Ground Hog, and many others through the years, I had a 5000 but have now gone back to the 4500.

I am not having a go at you. au-fever, just asking you to have a think about detector coils again, there is more to them than you may realise.

Best regards.   ozgold 041

PS: goldquest. The good old days are still here, maybe perhaps a little harder to find,  just think of another way to get the gold.
Life wasn’t meant to be easy.

Edited for spelling ozgold.

================================================================================

ozgold 041 wrote:
Hello goldtalkleonora.

With your above comment, Quote: Chase small gold...the big ones will find you'

With respect, that comment in not quite right, as in my opinion and many other seasoned prospectors that I know, the point put in my above post in regards to chasing small gold is this.

Many detector operators today use very small coils, where their intention is to target the smaller gold, but what most don’t realize is that you are restricting yourself to finding the better and deeper gold we all seek.

Small coils are sensitive to small gold that’s for sure, yet they are quite restricted when it comes to depth in hot ground, so if you chase small bits of gold using a small coil you will rarely find anything of decent size deep, unless you are a tin bum as au- fever suggests.

Au-fever’s comment re: (and for those that scoff at people who chase small gold). Mate I hope you don’t think I am knocking the small gold prospectors, good luck to them, all I want to get across is, they can do better with a little advice from an old timer and his mates.


The experienced operators I know, have found through their years of experience, that if you always use a large round coil say, one of at least 14” inches across, and hopefully one larger, up to 18”in or 20” ins.

You will find that your gold size and weight will increase, and you will also find a lot of that small gold along the way too, sure you may miss a few tiddlers, but you can cover a darn site more ground over a day.

When using a bigger coil, most will find that the amount of small gold found will still be similar, perhaps not so many pieces but the weight will be there.

Detecting is a numbers game as most know, the more area covered in a day, the more chance of finding your next decent piece.                                                                                                                                                    

Remember if you look for small gold with a smaller coil, you will certainly find gold alright, and unfortunately, it’s more than likely that is all you will get.

Just some food for thought, especially for the new comers to detecting.

Cheers and good luck.

Ozgold 041

G'day Ozgold.
Interesting comments, some I agree with and some I don't....but I find people's opinions and experiences a heck of a lot more interesting than the old...'I found a .2g nugget today"!

I guess the point would make is that far too much emphasis is placed with the detector. I think your comments are valid up to maybe the GP 4000 day's??? I have alway's found that the best coil is the one you find gold with...ie..the one you get used to...find gold with and therefore have confidence in. I do not believe that straight out coverage is the best method of patch hunting in fact I do all my patch hunting with an 11 inch coil. Two things I have found out is that firstly, the ground often dictates the ability of the detector.....I know the instruction manuals say that the big coils will punch deeper than a smaller coil but I have shown it a thousand times that that is too simplistic a statement and it's not alway's/often the case. Having pushed a lot of dirt in my time I have shown that metal detectors can one day be brilliant beasts of things and the following day dam near useless....again it's the ground that sets the tone. The other thing I would say is that the detector, it's settings and coil selection really is lower down the list of things that will make someone a good prospector. I am not trying to push my cart here but I guess your aware my wife and i run training courses.....when people come to me wanting to learn how to use a machine then my normal prickly response is that if that's all you need to learn then go and read the f'ing instruction manual...you don't need to pay someone to learn how to use the detectors! If people want to learn how to prospect then I am happy to take their money.....and it's learning how to work ground and what sort of ground to work etc etc...now that's is what will make someone successful at patch hunting.

The other point I would make is that having swung big coils for years, it is often the small nuggets that will be the only indicator that your near/on a patch. If your not set up with your gear and your mental approach to hear that fairy fart at 4.00pm in the arvo when things are not going your way then you may well be missing out on the only chance you'll get. There are a squillion small nuggets to one large nugget and I reckon if you set yourself up for those you will do better overall.

Where I would definately agree with you is when your working a patch in deep ground. If your only bush chooking then I do think that running over the patch with a bigger coil is a smart move. But having bush chooked for many years my experience where we would do all our work with 11-12" coils and then run over the patch with a 20" or so and check for a 'lurker' it was almost never there. Having pushed A LOT of dirt I can also say that getting any gold enrichment beyond about 500mm or so is also very rare...we like to think there are countless big nuggets down deep but usually they aint!.

Anyway...it's a good conversation and I hope you see my comments as constructive. I only prospect in the West...and so things are relating to here.

cheers

Tony Pilkington