GPZ 19 inch depth increase ?? - I don't think so.......

GypsyGoldAu wrote:

Liquid Gold wrote:
My question is, do minelab test their coils on undug gold targets at various depths?, I don't think so. How can they justify the 30% increase if they can't do real tests like you've suggested "undug targets found and tested with both coils BEFORE unearthing them".  I think minelab should come clean here and take this opportunity to justify and prove their claims. These claims look to be false according to some of the most experienced operators on this forum.

The obvious is to work backwards using the 19" to detect targets beyond the 14" coils ability, and slowly scrape a layer at a time until the 14" hears the target...compare the numbers and work out that target, on that ground, with your machine set that way...will give you the % difference...Easy.

But unlike others, don't be fooled into thinking it's going to be 30% 'EVERY" time, as appears some here appear to do.

I see your point, but I think people are frustrated because the advertising states "Deeper Detection (average 30%*)". The average is 30%, not the maximum. And " significant depth increase over the standard GPZ 14 coil." This will raise the false hopes of anyone buying this coil...

kon61 wrote:Disappointing to say the least. Reg I tip my hat off to you & JRBeaty for stating the facts,on the performance of the new Minelab 19 inch Super D Coil,as compared to the 14x13. Now unless we're missing something or not doing something right,in the way of ground/detector coil performance,I too failed to see the average depth of 30% on natural gold nuggets,in an air test,(or dug up & then back filled ground test) over that of the 14x13 inch GPZ coil. I will be putting up a picture of the nuggets in question soon, but because we're still out on the field,going over old patches that produced good sized gold in the past,it will be in another couple of days. Mind you,3 localities searched so far have produced squat,in terms of any deep targets.

Cheers Kon.

============================================================

Hello Members.
And a pleasant Sunday morning to you all.

On following all these posts about the new 19 inch coil on a number of threads and forums, I see most are starting to change their minds about ML and their misleading advertising.

It’s nice to see some members having the fortitude to apologize in their posts to Reg W. Many should be thanking him for having the guts to let you all know the truth early on, before you outlaid your hard earned cash.

I see that Nero has bought into this discussion as well, are you still working for Miners Den in Sydney?

And Gypsy Gold AU, you surprise me with your constant backing of this company over this fiasco, a very strange turn of events.

Cheers ozgold

Well I find this post fascinating....first of all I don't own a GPZ, but have followed others with the 5000 and gpz....when the gpz got a target we went behind to see if we could hear the target. Most of the targets were heard with the gpx machines, and only a few were not and the gpz 14 " coil had a clear advantage. Perhaps its to early to judge the ability of the 19" coil and in time and more users get the chance to use the 19" we will hear more on the ability or inability of the 19" coil in the field. I can name a few fellas in your part of the world (I wont name them) that will eventually speak their mind about the 14 Vs 19 coils after they have some time in the real world...but so far according to some respective detectorists who have done their own test...its not encouraging news. Hope we are all wrong.....its news like this that will surely slow down interest and sales at a time they should be selling like hot pajamas ..at least in my part of the world....Happy Hunting to you all....

Perhaps if some on here stopped holding their pieces it might be possible for
them to hold their peace.
DaveM.

Martin R wrote:Where are all the other Z owners here that have the coil, may still out in the field tonight should be good then with the fireworks starting once they get home and start reading all of this and add to it

M.

I am one of those......I have the coil, but haven't even fitted it yet.

I am no where near any goldfeild that would give any indication, but brought it to take to WA next year.......I am sitting back hopping I havent wasted my money, but until I get out there myself reading all this is a worry.

Jen58 wrote:

GypsyGoldAu wrote:

rc62burke wrote:
Well Well Well
I call BS on this statement, we should all know that this will not reflect the true mineralisation of the said ground as the surface few inches will be greater in mineralisation, hence will have a different outcome with the more dirt you dig out.

Well...if the 14" couldn't get it but the 19"does...YOU tell me how YOU intend to work out the depth % difference please?
No...really, i want to understand how YOU come to your conclusions about coil performance. (Sure, i can learn lots more, so give me the mail?)

Gypsy

I thought you were going to "I SHALL HERE-FORTH HOLD MY PIECE" 
If you can not back off. 
You will be looking at going on a holiday!!!

Well isn't this getting emotive   .....................Jen with all due respect, and if I interpret your "holiday" statement correctly to mean a suspension or ban, I for one would not support that stance, I have read this thread as well and find no reasonable grounds to suggest such an action, surely all are free to offer their own opinions and ideas, I personally would be very disappointed to see such a heavy handed censorship approach to what seems to be reasonable and neccesary debate.

Wayne

Digginerup wrote:

Jen58 wrote:

GypsyGoldAu wrote:

rc62burke wrote:
Well Well Well
I call BS on this statement, we should all know that this will not reflect the true mineralisation of the said ground as the surface few inches will be greater in mineralisation, hence will have a different outcome with the more dirt you dig out.

Well...if the 14" couldn't get it but the 19"does...YOU tell me how YOU intend to work out the depth % difference please?
No...really, i want to understand how YOU come to your conclusions about coil performance. (Sure, i can learn lots more, so give me the mail?)

Gypsy

I thought you were going to "I SHALL HERE-FORTH HOLD MY PIECE" 
If you can not back off. 
You will be looking at going on a holiday!!!

Well isn't this getting emotive   .....................Jen with all due respect, and if I interpret your "holiday" statement correctly to mean a suspension or ban, I for one would not support that stance, I have read this thread as well and find no reasonable grounds to suggest such an action, surely all are free to offer their own opinions and ideas, I personally would be very disappointed to see such a heavy handed censorship approach to what seems to be reasonable and neccesary debate.

Wayne

Hi wayne
Appreciate your input.. 
have been chatting with GGA privately.. 

Hey Wayne.. this unpaid moderating job can be very time consuming.. we all do the best we can..
Sometimes i know i get it wrong. 
But we have come to an understanding.

Regards
Jen

G'day Wayne

Like Jen just said, were doing the best we can, and it's hard to please everyone all the time

But, I think I would rather read post from actual users of the 7000 and the new 19" coil rather than a lot of huffing and puffing from people that don't even own a 7000.

GypsyGoldAu is welcome as are you and everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it gets a bit tiresome to see the stuff about a coil by people that have not used one and maybe not used a 7000 or at least haven't used one on a longer term basis

Splendid!!!, I do appreciate your efforts and input as a moderator and understand at times the best course of action will result in bans or lockouts, I most definitely feel that an educated and informed person can still have valid and useful input on a subject even if that person does not personally own the device in question, thank you for your efforts    but please let the discussion/debate continue, as long as it does not descend into **** slinging personal attacks we will all learn something along the way .

Wayne

No worries Wayne, I agree with you, but I would also like to read/see/hear more from people using the thing, and it would be good if ML could do a bit more in the department of explaining as well as promoting.

cheers dave

With Dave.

Cheers.

Mike.

I totally agree, first hand info is always most valuable but not to the exclusion of other interested/educated parties, naturally it is very early days yet but so far as always it seems Minelab are conspicuous by their lack of effort to directly address people/customers concerns, I will watch this space with much interest.

Wayne

Glad to see people are putting in some opinions and the more information we all get the greater the understanding on the issue of the coil and it's capability.
I don't want to see anyone silenced on this issue as it is too important and needs to be resolved as soon as possible.
We spent part of yesterday looking for undug targets to do as Gypsy has mentioned ie scraping some soil off in order to compare the 2 coils but as I have said we had already cleaned out our old area. I can say that the only thing that pulled us up on 2 occasions was a sound over a tree root. The 19 " coil sounded like a target and the 14' told me that it was ground noise(root plus soil). We took soil off and got below the root but the 19" was still going off on the root. I preferred the sound of the 14" coil yet again.
Trust us, we all wanted this new coil to get our spirits back over some old ground that we all feel has deep targets. I will also say that some of these spots have produced approximately 13 ounces over the last 4 years so you can understand why we want the depth.
Hang in there Jen and our frustration comes when people repeat the same old hammering rather than asking us for clarity.
cheers Bill

Off Topic

My goodness what is going on here people. Can't you even be nice to each other for goodness sake. What a **** slinging turnout this has turned out to be.

All the very best to you all.
I never did post much but I did learn a lot.
Goodbye forum I will be deleting my profile.

Deepabeepa wrote:Off Topic

My goodness what is going on here people. Can't you even be nice to each other for goodness sake. What a **** slinging turnout this has turned out to be.

All the very best to you all.
I never did post much but I did learn a lot.
Goodbye forum I will be deleting my profile.

  ...a little extreme in my humble opinion but as is your right....farewell.

Wayne.

G'day All,

I have the new GPZ19 coil as well, I picked it up on our way home from HillEnd last Tuesday. I haven't been able to put much time in with it as yet, but my young bloke and went to an area where he found a 20oz nugget about 15yrs ago with the SD2000. Anyway I ran mine in hy/difficult and the young bloke ran his in gen/extra deep/normal. Anyway we compared our finds at the end and I found the usual small shot pellets, while the young bloke found larger shot balls & .22 leads. What I'm saying is we need more time with it and trying to get the right settings for the new 19"coil. We were only there for couple of hours, as the weather was starting to get a bit warm.

Cheers.

Mike.

vasilis wrote:Glad to see people are putting in some opinions and the more information we all get the greater the understanding on the issue of the coil and it's capability.
I don't want to see anyone silenced on this issue as it is too important and needs to be resolved as soon as possible.
We spent part of yesterday looking for undug targets to do as Gypsy has mentioned ie scraping some soil off in order to compare the 2 coils but as I have said we had already cleaned out our old area. I can say that the only thing that pulled us up on 2 occasions was a sound over a tree root. The 19 " coil sounded like a target and the 14' told me that it was ground noise(root plus soil). We took soil off and got below the root but the 19" was still going off on the root. I preferred the sound of the 14" coil yet again.
Trust us, we all wanted this new coil to get our spirits back over some old ground that we all feel has deep targets. I will also say that some of these spots have produced approximately 13 ounces over the last 4 years so you can understand why we want the depth.
Hang in there Jen and our frustration comes when people repeat the same old hammering rather than asking us for clarity.
cheers Bill

I think your Testing Method is a very Valid one.
This from Minelab may help




"The BENIGN Lane

As the name suggests, Benign soils have very little mineralisation and only a small amount of loss. However, because the mineralisation is so low, even a small amount of loss can dominate, for example, if there is salt in the ground and it is damp or wet. One of the purposes of the Benign lane is for a development-proving environment where new detectors/algorithms can be tested outside the lab, but without the influences of ground. Additionally, the performance of a detector in the Benign ground should be very close to that in air, which is the best-case reference condition.

Lane: Benign
Equivalent to: Reference level (similar to air)
Detecting for: Development purposes
Ground Strength: 4,000
Phase angle: ~0 degrees @25kHz"

Source of reference
http://www.minelab.com/anz/go-minelabbing/treasure-talk/in-the-ground-is-where-detecting-really-counts

davsgold wrote:No worries Wayne, I agree with you, but I would also like to read/see/hear more from people using the thing, and it would be good if ML could do a bit more in the department of explaining as well as promoting.

cheers dave

I stopped reading probably quite a few posts ago but quickly ran over those I didn't read completely, anyway seems we all have very short memories as over a decade and half ago quite a lot of dealers relinquished their ML dealerships on a very similar claim from ML. Does anyone remember the claim and what detector? I shall refresh your memories, it was the GP Extreme and the claim was it went 80% deeper than the previous detectors and namely the SD2200. Dealers after testing refused to go along with this claim and were politely told if they didn't they would lose their dealership rights.

I love ML detectors but really if you believe anything outrageous that comes from them then I have a 1 ton ute that although looks like a normal one it is made from gold, anyone interested price is only $1000!!!

There must be some benefits with the 19" coil but as with the detector itself how many still say it is not as good as a GPX. Someone else on another forum tended to agree with my wish that ML would actually make a smaller coil for the GPZ so we can get into those places that the 14" is had to use. Those prospectors with experience will know that not all sizes of coils perform great everywhere so let's just realise that. Anyway just my 2 bobs worth....

Ismael wrote:

I love ML detectors but really if you believe anything outrageous that comes from them then I have a 1 ton ute that although looks like a normal one it is made from gold, anyone interested price is only $1000!!!

Some people have dreams so wild it overrides common sense .

Spent one week using the 19 coil on deep ground. The grass was a bit long. I have used larger coils a lot and it is hard work swinging a large coil on all but flat open ground and its hard work digging deep holes. The coil is to be used for deep targets, the 14 is often a better choice for most general detecting situations. The 19 coil is very heavy and using it all day and on slopes did make my arms/shoulders sore......but I will get used to it.

Unlike most coils, the combination of eight square edged holes in the coil causes a lot of drag/friction on sticks and grass. Sticks get caught up in the coil regularly and even get threaded through the holes meaning you have to pull them out...you can't just wag the coil and get them out. A sheet of Lexan plastic across the bottom of this coil would help a lot (like on the big red coil).  

***large spoked nuggetfinder and coiltek gpx coils with rounded plastic skidplates slide over the same terrain much much easier then the 19. The high friction factor on the 19 coil is a big issue and a major design deficiency.

The rubber buffers are tactile and actually grip on sticks and some grass making swinging the coil difficult. I have cut and split the rubber in a few places already. Spines from tiger pear cactus pierce the rubber and stick out of it. I can see spinni spines doing the same thing. Not a huge drama but not good to lay the detector on the bed in the back of the troopy unless I extract the tiger pear spines first.

I am very happy with the performance of the coil giving distinctive broad signals on very deep targets. I detected mullock heaps on uneven bedrock that contain trash and some larger nuggets from time to time. I dug 8 holes over 2 feet deep for trash (nails, a 1850's stirrup and various metal pieces). I actually had a crowbar and the 4500 with a sadie coil in a central location and I need them for nearly every dig with rocks in the holes. The sadie was the only effective way to pinpoint the target when the holes got deep.
 ...I also used the sadie to go over the dug out dirt and found one micro nugget in the dig outs piles.
I did not find any slugs at depth but did get some 0.1 to 0.3 nuggets a few centimetres down while looking for deep targets

Using HY or general with high gain/sensitivity and smoothing off or low worked well in low/mod ground conditions, but I need more field time and comparing different settings over undug targets before I can suggest settings I like.

I like the coil...but as my detecting friend commented....Swinging with the 19 coil takes all the fun out of detecting.
Cheers Tributer

Tributer wrote:The sadie was the only effective way to pinpoint the target when the holes got deep.
Cheers Tributer

Ditto, we have the 5000 with Sadie for that purpose as well.

Redfin.

Hi everyone.

Thank you to Martin R for providing that video about the Minelab Testing Ground. A lot of breath is expended on air tests and their value, and exactly how Minelab test their coils and detectors.

I have only seen one Minelab video of how they went about testing the GPZ and it looks like it was out at Echunga. I was a little put off by it, and you can see a very small part of it in the video supplied, because they basically dug a deep hole then excavated other holes parallel to the ground at different depths and placed pieces of gold into these holes. Although there was "undisturbed" ground sitting above these pieces, there was no halo effect provided by the ground and nuggets. I am of the opinion, and it is only my opinion not scientific fact, that some of Minelab's testing is very similar to air testing.

The Testing Ground will only be a valid test if the ground has been left undisturbed for several years after the items were placed at their appropriate depths so that the pieces begin to display a halo effect. This may be the case but it not mentioned in the video.

I do own a GPZ but for 2 reasons I decided not to purchase the 19" coil. As I am unemployed I could not afford the new coil and I felt that I could find just as little gold with the 14" as I could with the 19", and at my age digging really deep holes is taking it out of me.

I see GoldGypsyAu's point in regard to Minelab's claim of an AVERAGE 30% depth increase, AVERAGE means just that, AVERAGE. In Australia's goldfields the depth increase might be as little as 5%, but in extremely benign ground there may be an increase of 80%. These are just my made up figures and in no way reflect what results Minelab may have ended up with.

The word "Average" in their advertising also made me wait until I could see what results others were getting with their new coils before heading to the bank manager (wife) with a proposition for purchasing a new coil. Having been stung paying the full price for the detector didn't help either.

I certainly hope that all those who purchased the coil get some satisfaction in the future, especially Kon61, who waited so patiently for the Kraken to be released.

Regards Axtyr.

I guess at the end of the day, if we take the word average, and 30% out of the argument altogether, what are we left with ?

Is there any advantage at all over the 14......be it area covered , or some depth increase.............or is it a complete dud and only equals the 14, so we are swinging all that weight for nothing.

Let me throw this one at you!

With the large % gain that was advertised which ranged from nuggets 2gram & above, I would have thought that there would be a significant amount of say 2 gram to say 6 gram nuggets being found with this new coil upon the old patches that have already been worked by folks who have the new coil, lets face it that even if it achieved a 5% to 10% increase in depth which is far below the average claimed, there would/ should be many happy campers right now as we all know that the size nuggets I've mentioned are far more prolific than the 1 oz types.

In theory there should still be a lot of the nuggets mentioned above just out of reach of the GPZ14" coil should there not???

rc62burke wrote:Let me throw this one at you!

With the large % gain that was advertised which ranged from nuggets 2gram & above, I would have thought that there would be a significant amount of say 2 gram to say 6 gram nuggets being found with this new coil upon the old patches that have already been worked by folks who have the new coil, lets face it that even if it achieved a 5% to 10% increase in depth which is far below the average claimed, there would/ should be many happy campers right now as we all know that the size nuggets I've mentioned are far more prolific than the 1 oz types.

In theory there should still be a lot of the nuggets mentioned above just out of reach of the GPZ14" coil should there not???

Sounds good in theory Lee
But the boy's out testing reported a 0% gain to a staggering Minus 10% depth reduction on that size range of Gold


Nugget ........ 14" coil .............. 19" coil ............... % difference

1.2 gram 8" 8" 0 %

3 gram 11" 10" minus 10 %

6.6 gram 13" 12" minus 9 %

Harb wrote:I guess at the end of the day, if we take the word average, and 30% out of the argument altogether, what are we left with ?

Is there any advantage at all over the 14......be it area covered , or some depth increase.............or is it a complete dud and only equals the 14, so we are swinging all that weight for nothing.

Harb, there is still a little hope of small rewards for the persistent and methodical operator.

https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=291503#p291503

Sorry tryhard if I jumped in ahead of you

Cheers
Kev.

Ismael wrote:Someone else on another forum tended to agree with my wish that ML would actually make a smaller coil for the GPZ so we can get into those places that the 14" is had to use.

Hi Ismael, I am very keen on the smaller coil aswell, realistically how small could minelab go with one? I've been told 6" is a no go with the new tech, maybe an unusual 9" size at the other end of the spectrum, compared to the 19" coil?

Cheers GG

After talking with my Friend this morning, the link above was pretty much what he had said to me
I'll be keeping my coil and go over areas that may not have seen full traffic and go from there

M.

Kev has been using a similar method to tryhard and has made the coil produce some gold.

The results may not be as striking as Minelabs' chart portrays, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a dud yet.

Also if you look at the post I made in the 'GPZ 19"coil' thread we can at least expect 15% dependant upon the target and perhaps more with canny settings.

The later of course is not easily demonstratable in mock test situations.

No denying it though, Minelabs' pants are smoking.