More than 40% deeper?

Patches I’ve done over that gave pounds of nuggets with previous new technology, have only given up grams with the 7k, not ounces.
A small patch that gave say 10 nuggets to the GPX has only provided an extra 1 or 2 with the Zed

This has been this Guys experience with the 7k as well......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUj_3o6WwjE

How does the 40% deeper relate?
Looking at the chart, and I’m sorry I can’t remember your previous question phoenix to have a go at it, I don’t have experience in the triangle anyway, so didn’t attempt it.



It shows that on 97.4% of nuggets tested, Zed showed an advantage over a 5000 with an equivalent sized coil. (not an 11” but a 14” meaning a slight coverage advantage to the 5000)
72% gave more than a 10% depth advantage to the 7k
35% gave more than a 20% depth advantage to the 7k
16.9% gave more than a 30% depth advantage to the 7k
7.8% gave more than a 40% depth advantage to the 7k
5% gave more than a 50% depth advantage to the 7k

However, all nuggets in a patch are not at the extremity of detection, so going by my experiences so far, I would estimate that between, 80 to 90% of nuggets in a new patch are within range of the GPX utilising most coil sizes available (except the very latest as I've no experience with these yet)
Only 10 to 20% are in a range that the Zed can exercise its advantage of superior depth and sensitivity.

There is one thing here to note though phoenix, if you are going after nuggets half an oz or more, in pretty hot ground, you have a much greater chance of bagging a beauty using a 5000 or 4500 sporting the biggest DD you can manage, running in Sharp or Normal. That’s where the missing 2.6% went.
When, and if the Zed gets a bigger coil, the game will heavily change in its favor.

A hint boys, GPX timings have an inherent ground mineral exclusion effect that markedly reduces the sensitivity to lead, especially small bits such as shot!
Have you ever wondered why you seldom dig a 22 slug as deep as a nugget of the same size or mass?
Some deep ones are about, I’ve dug a few that would’ve been quite deep had it not been for a washout.
This is also related to the above, in that some nuggets have a decay curve very similar to a piece of lead. Due to this, and their depth and surroundings, they have eluded detection by all previous detectors, until now thanks to Zed.
This will account for some nuggets of moderate depth that have one scratching the head as to why on earth were they previously missed.
         
So exhausted goldfields will cough up another 10-20% to the Zed, but at this stage with the smaller coil, they tend to be of the lighter and slighter variety.

A.

That's my video in your link there. For what it's worth, I've spent another solid week hitting up old patches in the same goldfield (Gold Basin) and basically every patch was the same story - 1-2 (or zero) nuggets and all dinks. Total out of these patches I've found a little over 1/2 pound of nuggets with the 4500 just as a general idea, ranging up to 2/3 ounce. For the USA and in 2010 these were pretty good patches. Also of note is that this is generally considered to be one of the "deeper" goldfields in the US and almost every nugget here contains quartz and is known for being spongy. So I really thought I'd be cleaning up with the GPZ.

However, its worth mentioning that this wasn't my experience in a different goldfield in Nevada where the Z did well for me. I was going into patches that were new to me, but had been hit for 3 decades by guys who've been doing this since before I was born, I'm sure Steve H can guess were a few were at generally speaking and know what I am talking about with gold types. And I was able to almost make wages off the gold I found in old flogged patches up there. But on the other hand I was also able to clean up in those areas with my 4500 too, which is what I was using when I found most of them.

My own personal patches are tough sells for the Z though. I also took a trip to another Arizona goldfield recently with some nice old patches that I discovered virgin and cleaned out and I only got a couple grams total, all from the very fringes.

So I dunno...I'm conflicted. The 7000 definitely is more powerful than a GPX, I have no doubt in my mind about that. And with updating capabilities we may see that power increase too. But it sure seems to me like it's real use is mostly with very specific types of gold that are crystaline or very distributed through the specimen.

*Reading your post again your point makes sense too with depths and sounds like a very likely reason I may not be finding much in my old patches too.

Re (A hint boys, GPX timings have an inherent ground mineral exclusion effect that markedly reduces the sensitivity to lead, especially small bits such as shot!)

Thanks New to me. Wondered why the Z was picking up very small shot on the slope of a quartz hill with diggings down lower (in St Arnaud) and did not come across any small or very small gold. Initial thought ( finding the lead shot) was that the slope had not been detected thoroughly.

Birdshot (the tiny ones) I believe are usually alloys these days, some even have percentages of plastics in them. Bismuth, antimony, etc. See this Wikipedia page for some alloy details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_(pellet)

I don't know if this is right, but I've heard other people say this as well: PI's miss some of these alloyed shots even if they are capable of detecting an equal size shot of pure lead but VLF's will pick them up. It seems like the GPZ also picks them up.

Anyways, thought I would mention it, I have not tested it extensively or anything.

Great video Jasong, I laughed at patch #3 when you thought the target should have been out, but was in fact deeper, happens all the time now with my Zed. Most of the shotgun pellets I'm finding are about 1/8" to 3/16", and they are usually at about 2" to 3 " down, so I don't think that they are a modern variety but are solid lead. And the depth on that 3 grammer was amazing, that High Yield really sniffs them out at unheard of depths. Cheers, Harry.
PS. Welcome aboard!

Great video jasong, and thanks for your comments.

I love your hound, very entertaining touch, especially when he (or she, sorry didn't look that closely at the time) digs himself a cool patch to sit down in.
I bet you feel safe with his eyes, ears, and nose watching out for you.

Cheers
Kev.

I wonder how many of you in Oz use the "Normal" ground type setting instead of "Difficult" ground type setting on your 7000s since Oz ground is supposed to be more mineralized therefore "Normal" would seldom be used, as it appears can be in the USA going by the jasong video?

crowbar wrote:I wonder how many of you in Oz use the "Normal" ground type setting instead of "Difficult" ground type setting on your 7000s since Oz ground is supposed to be more mineralized therefore "Normal" would seldom be used, as it appears can be in the USA going by the jasong video?

OK. You are also in OZ apparently, so what is the relevance of that question, as I would have expected it from one of our US neighbours?
Since the software update has been available, I have noticed that I can now run more normal or conventional settings in some areas that I have been using "Bogene's settings". This means normal threshold and sensitivity, where I was using threshold at 1 and sensitivity at 20.

I also find that I can use normal in areas that I was using difficult. My prospecting mates also tell me that they can now use Normal in areas that they were using Difficult, so I guess we concur. It seems that we now have Superior Adjusted Detection for targets (SAD)
Cheers.

Qld Sandy wrote: so what is the relevance of that question, as I would have expected it from one of our US neighbours?

The relevance of my question is that the extra depth achieved using “Normal” would not have had any relevance in Oz since most of what I had read over time since the release of the 7000 was that “Difficult” was the preferred setting due to the ground in Oz.

However from what you say now since the update then “Normal” does indeed have relevance and the 7000 will now be capable of punching to depths way past what the GPX can achieve by having to stay in a “Smooth” timing  for the high mineralized ground in Oz.

I look forward to reading of some exceptional depths here in Oz with the update, now being able to operate in "Normal"

Thanks for your reply.

crowbar wrote:I look forward to reading of some exceptional depths here in Oz with the update, now being able to operate in "Normal".

NOW BEING ABLE TO OPERATE IN NORMAL!

OK. Depending on the ground in question, the operator perhaps has ALWAYS been able to operate in normal. So what is the question here considering you are in OZ yourself?
It is a known fact that some of the USA ground is mild in comparison to OZ. There are some hotter red clay soils in OZ that were able to be detected in NORMAL as the soil mineralisation wasn't very changeable, even though there were pockets of clay domes. These areas gave better responses in normal, and some of the signals were not to be had in DIFFICULT mode.
Perhaps a 8 gram nugget at a measured 18" in this environment that gave no response in difficult is a measure of this phenomenon. And I add that this was before the software update.

I remember back in the "good old days" detecting and having to decide whether the signal was ground or a target. we dug many, many ground noises. Along came the "special timings" that allowed us to ignore the copious ground signals and dig just the good targets.
Was it perfect?
Not in your life!
Was it beneficial.
HELL YEAH!!

The GPZ70000 software update has allowed users to operate more easily in ground that was a challenge. The ground balance always seems to be more in check every time I check it, and if I have to use a ferrite (NOT FERRIT you wombats) then so be it. The SURREAL ADVANTAGE DETECTING is worth the $$$ paid. I am not going into the details, but it is interesting to note that those that are doing well are keeping their mouths shut!
Over and out.

Qld Sandy wrote:
NOW BEING ABLE TO OPERATE IN NORMAL!
OK. Depending on the ground in question, the operator perhaps has ALWAYS been able to operate in normal.
So what is the question here considering you are in OZ yourself?

Only that I thought operating using "Normal" would more than likely have no relevance here in Oz, but you have changed my view.

OK.
We have areas that are fairly mineralised, but not extremely variable. One area for example is "hot" enough that one of the newer Goldbugs won't ground balance on.
This area can successfully be detected in Normal on a 7000, and a 5000 etc.
Some mates of mine with 7000's tell me that since the update, they can now operate in normal quite often even on the red clay soils.
I guess that we have become accustomed to being rid of ground noise with "special" timings. If we think back to the 3000 days and mono coils, we had none of this.
There was no magic tool to get rid of ground noise, unless you wanted to use a DD coil, which minimised it.
Cheers.

Re (Only that I thought operating using "Normal" would more than likely have no relevance here in Oz, but you have changed my view.) Ditto, prior to the update tried Normal a number of times, then changed to Difficult and have not tried Normal after the update, but will in future.

Along similar lines of thinking, should look at turning off Audio Smoothing to see if there is any increase in depth.

Peter

Hi guys
Sandy my experience on the zed and normal align with what you say!
I have been running normal most of the time and rarly use difficult.
Even in "noisy" or variable conditions, the metallic target is vastly different to the ground or hotrock response and most of the ground or hotrock responses can be knocked out when in normal by changing your swnig speed when checking the target.

But most operators do not have the expierince or skill level to be able to decipher the metalic target from the ground warble, but if you manage to master this skill you can achieve phenomenal depth on some nuggets over older technology.

Spot on GoldHound. Our ground in the U.S. may not be as bad as Oz but we do get some pretty hot ground in Northern California. I took it easy in the beginning but over time ramped things up and now almost never run in anything except Normal. In Nevada last month it was Normal, High Yield, Gain 20. Yes as you say ground noise and such but gold is distinct. All about the coil control really. I have done well even in salt ground, just have to slow down and get used to the tones.

Really looking forward to your next video!

Steve Herschbach wrote:Spot on GoldHound. Our ground in the U.S. may not be as bad as Oz but we do get some pretty hot ground in Northern California. I took it easy in the beginning but over time ramped things up and now almost never run in anything except Normal. In Nevada last month it was Normal, High Yield, Gain 20. Yes as you say ground noise and such but gold is distinct. All about the coil control really. I have done well even in salt ground, just have to slow down and get used to the tones.

Really looking forward to your next video!

Thanks Steve
The next vid just finished rendering so all I have to do now is post it to Dave to put on youtube.
Steve as you know every country has hot ground! And I'd say nearly every gold field would have at least one area of hotter ground, so don't listern when Aussies start with the hot ground B.S. you have plenty of hot ground over the pond.

PeterInSa wrote:
Along similar lines of thinking, should look at turning off Audio Smoothing to see if there is any increase in depth.

In another video I made I run over the same target (think it was the 2nd one) in 18 sens/low smoothing, then I do it again in 20 sens/smoothing off with 10 or so more notches up on the threshold because it occured to me while filming it that this question might come up. To spare the watching, the result was about 1/2" to 3/4" more depth. After a certain point I usually find that the noise gained from maximizing settings outweighs the sensitivity gained to targets though. That's specific to me and my local conditions though.

But in a wider sense I feel it comes down to a time vs productivity measure, do I spend more time investigating spurious noise with a very occasional positive target hidden in there or selectively ignore some and cover more ground? It's like dredging...personally I found that going slow with touchy equipment and trying to save every speck didn't pay as well as just ripping my riffles out and intentionally losing 10% efficiency but running 2x the gravel and almost doubling my gold output.

No doubt that turning smoothing off adds some depth though. Just comes down to a person's location, conditions, and personal preferences.

Steve Herschbach wrote:Spot on GoldHound. Our ground in the U.S. may not be as bad as Oz but we do get some pretty hot ground in Northern California. I took it easy in the beginning but over time ramped things up and now almost never run in anything except Normal. In Nevada last month it was Normal, High Yield, Gain 20. Yes as you say ground noise and such but gold is distinct. All about the coil control really. I have done well even in salt ground, just have to slow down and get used to the tones.

Really looking forward to your next video!

You've hit the nail on the head Steve, its all about coil control with the GPZ.

I think people are still making the mistake of thinking of the GPZ in terms of a GPX 5000, ZVT is not like that. In simple terms the GPZ is a full blown, full power VLF that takes clever advantage of polarity switching to garner target information in mineralised soils. But there is so much more to the 7000 story than just that, it also has an inherently quiet coil configuration and underlying all of this are the major improvements in electronics that gets rid of a huge amount of Sferic noise, sferics is the hidden monster in your GPX threshold that kills performance.

With ZVT there are a few tricks to learn along the way if you want to take advantage of all that power or you can just choose less aggressive modes and enjoy the ride, its your choice because the detector has been designed to be all inclusive regardless of the terrain (I'm not saying its perfect by any means but the positives FAR FAR outweigh the negatives, and seeing how my DNA as a prospector always leans towards "the glass as being half full" and not as "half empty" I'll stick to just focusing on the positives thank you very much ).

In the right conditions where the soil mineralisation is less extreme the GPZ runs a lot quieter than a GPX with a mono coil attached, not only that but the GPZ 7000 outperforms a GPX with a small mono coil on tiny gold and at the VERY same time outperforms a GPX with a large mono coil attached. All that from just one coil size. I strongly advise operators who are now conversant with their GPZs to start exploring the world of Normal "Ground Type" to see the incredible performance the GPZ has to offer, but BUYER BEWARE, it will not be suitable everywhere and you will have to modify your detecting style to make the grade.

If you were to draw a line between the GPX 5000s performance level of Normal timings with a Monoloop coil over Fine Gold timings there would be about a 20% give or take difference in outright depth, this is largely dependant on ground type ect, but all in all from an air depth point of view thats about the average in signal strength between the modes on most targets, obviously the advantage is when the ground signal is greater than the average of the target signal where the Smooth type timings start to offer a major advantage. With GPZ its a completely different animal and I do mean animal!!

The GPZ 7000 on the other hand is a beast in Normal Ground Type modes, so much so I won't even put a percentage comparison between Normal and Difficult because I'm still to establish where the ceiling is, suffice to say it all comes down to interpretation which is dictated by a number of refinement methods and thought processes when pursuing that upper depth ceiling.

Tips: The GPZ 7000 is much more swing dependant that a GPX 5000 with a monoloop coil, all experienced operators from the SD and GP era who specialised in DD coils will know all about swing dependency and is effect on target responses on deep nuggets. Because of the dual receive you absolutely need to understand the interaction on signal behaviour when one or the other winding is exposed differently to the ground and a buried object. Because of the dual receive the direction you approach a target also has a major bearing on signal response, so be prepared to swing from multiple directions and also go outside the target zone then swing back in again on iffy deep responses.

X balance with the Ferrite is critical, become absolutely OCD on Ferrite balance especially in Normal modes.

Coil height: The GPZ saturates easily in Normal Ground Type mode, this is NOT a FAULT, it is part and parcel to ZVT, get used to it!  LIFT the coil up, ground scrubbers need not apply, unless the surface mineralisation is Minimal.

Lastly be aggressive in your chasing of iffy target noises, in Normal the GPZ is a chatter box. When you get to know what it's telling you you'll be able to tell when your in gold bearing ground, you'll be able to tell when a target a long way from the coil is disrupting the force. Trust the detector to inform you of a GOOD response compared to ground variation, good coil control and lifting the coil helps with this. Lastly if the general ground signal information is overwhelming you then you need to be responsible and use a mode that helps (Difficult), because some ground types are just not conducive to Normal modes on the GPZ resulting in a less than ideal level of ground signal response potentially overwhelming Normal Ground Type modes depth percentage advantages.

JP

here here JP

Jonathan Porter wrote:Lastly if the general ground signal information is overwhelming you then you need to be responsible and use a mode that helps (Difficult), because some ground types are just not conducive to Normal modes on the GPZ resulting in a less than ideal level of ground signal response potentially overwhelming Normal Ground Type modes depth percentage advantages.
JP

Jp hi
I detect in the triangle and since I acquired the 7000 I have experimented with Normal Ground setting off and on and have dug some terrific sounding signals that just dissapeared or turned out to be hotrocks and I am yet to get a bit of gold in Normal Ground setting, so it`s hard for me to judge whether I should persevere with Normal or not.
JP my question is, how far would you turn Gain down in Normal before you switched over to Difficult Ground and crank the gain back up?      Is Gain of 3 in Normal more powerful than Gain of 17 in Difficult?
thanks
dave

Great question Dave, I've been thinking the same thing.

I'll go one better and ask:

Is  "Normal" + sensivity 1 more powerful then......
   "Difficult" + sensivity 20?

Here is an odd one...I've had nuggets that actually sounded off louder and/or sharper in Difficult than in Normal, they've all been smaller bits near surface, nothing over 1 gram or over about 6-7 inches. Not sure how that works, but it's happened a good handful of times now. It's only happened so far in salty or somewhat hot ground and it's been with spongy or crystalline gold. It's been places I've gridded in Normal but then walked around randomly in Difficult later on and hit on them as sharp lively targets, then switched to Normal and there was either no signal or it was barely there.

I'm guessing part of the answer is something to the effect of it depends on the geometry of the gold and the type of ground.

Sorry guys, but all this talk of running in "Normal" soil setting just ain't doing it for me here in Victoria. It squeals like a banshee. It picks up most hot rocks, and will drive you insane. You will also not hear any faint signals. Now granted, if I had been fortunate enough to find a patch, I would certainly use" Normal", but only on the patch to try to wring one more nugget out of it. Is there anybody here in Victoria that runs the Zed in "Normal" full time? Somehow, I doubt it. IMHO.

Mate I`ve been running Normal for the last couple of days and managed to find a couple of small bits but the detector is damn noisy
I`m gonna stick with it for the next little while.
Still hoping JP may reply.
I imagine Steve could probably help with settings as well.
One thing that I think helps is turning Target Volume way down.  I normally run Volume at 6 but since working in Normal I`ve turned Volume down to 3 and will probably try turning down to 1 or 2.
I`m also thinking it probably doesn`t help if you have to turn the gain way down.Turning the gain down doesn`t seam to quieten the machine.
 Yesterday I was running a gain of 12
cheers

Well phoenix, looks like you can endure pain better than I can. And congrats on finding some nuggets in the normal setting. The only other times I would use it is in deep ground and in amongst the slate bars of a gully. But full time, nuh.

just finished rendering so all I have to do now is post it to Dave to put on youtube


Hi Dale

Mate did Dave finish that Vid yet ,,,,I'm sure I'm talking for many here ,,,,,,,,,,we cant wait to see it

Marty

slimpickens wrote:Well phoenix, looks like you can endure pain better than I can. And congrats on finding some nuggets in the normal setting. The only other times I would use it is in deep ground and in amongst the slate bars of a gully. But full time, nuh.

I found the same in Cwest NSW no way you can use Normal , way to many false signals

Marty

Dale wrote:The first vid of season 2015 is now on youtube for your viewing pleasure scratch or may be displeasure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F2NtrKfKwo

Hey Martin I think you will find this is the one.

cheers dave

2 hrs of it , cool better get another drink an sit back

tnx Dave for the link and Dale n D crew for the time showing us the the Z

crowbar wrote:

Qld Sandy wrote:
NOW BEING ABLE TO OPERATE IN NORMAL!
OK. Depending on the ground in question, the operator perhaps has ALWAYS been able to operate in normal.
So what is the question here considering you are in OZ yourself?

Only that I thought operating using "Normal" would more than likely have no relevance here in Oz, but you have changed my view.

From what is now being said by others here then my thoughts in regards to operating Normal here in Oz would appear to indeed have no relevance, well in Victoria and NSW.

Maybe in QLD where JP and QSandy operate their ground is of less hindrance to Normal than in the other two states.  

I wonder if WA and SA ground can handle Normal.