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You need to be careful about doing that.
As you will definitely de-sensitize the detector to some targets by balancing over ferrite.
But in highly magnetic ground it could help quieten the detector.
There is heaps of noisy variable ground that has little magnetic type mineral content so think about it before you chose to do this.

You can do the same thing on any detector this is not new!
I would only try this as a last resort in highly magnetic soil types or areas with a lot of magnetic hot rocks.

Kon.

davsgold wrote:Thanks fellas, just putting it out there as to what ML are sending out for the 7000, I have never heard about anything like this before and just wanted some opinions about the idea.

cheers dave

Dave
Basically what you need to do when detecting is keep the detector as close to perfectly ground balanced as possible.
The closer to perfect the least long and fast time constant signal you loose.
If you balance over ferrite you are ground balancing the ground+ ferrite which is quite a lot of signal range that you are eliminating, particularly into the long time constant.
If I'm having trouble with a particular type of ground I would balance out the worst ground or if its hot rocks I would kick a few of the worst offenders together and balance over them a few times before resorting to ferrite.
As the property's of different soils and hot rocks are likely very different to ferrite.
But the ferrite will be useful in highly magnetic ground types.

GoldHound your not correct with regards to GPZ and ZVT, the "Dust Iron" Ferrite provided by Minelab will provide a more refined and consistent Ground Balance result for GPZ users in all terrains. The "Walk and Sweep" method still holds sway, this is just another way for operators to achieve better outcomes in varying environments.

Remember the GPZ 7000 is NEW technology so therefore requires a different approach, in this instance Minelab are providing operators more choices by rolling out different ways to achieve even better outcomes.

JP

I take it the Ferrite will be free to present owners and were distributed to dealers prior to this announcement and release?
I can't find any info on them in shops at all.

Exactly my thoughts to red fin.

Rang Reeds and they had them, free to existing Zed owners
Peaky is picking mine up today
Will be trying out tomorrow, should be interesting!

Thanks GS, looks like they have been distributed, have to go into Maryborough tomorrow for a few things so will call into Coiltek.

Jonathan Porter wrote:GoldHound your not correct with regards to GPZ and ZVT, the "Dust Iron" Ferrite provided by Minelab will provide a more refined and consistent Ground Balance result for GPZ users in all terrains. The "Walk and Sweep" method still holds sway, this is just another way for operators to achieve better outcomes in varying environments.

Remember the GPZ 7000 is NEW technology so therefore requires a different approach, in this instance Minelab are providing operators more choices by rolling out different ways to achieve even better outcomes.

JP

The detector is just canceling out the signal caused by the ferrite which is highly magnetic, so it will ONLY help in soils that have a magnetic type response and not a conductive type response caused by other minerals/salts.
How will ferrite help in areas that have little to no Iron content?
There are plenty of areas that the mineralization has little Iron in it but are noisy because of other minerals or salts, I cant see ferrite helping at all in those areas.
The standard GB process would be way more effective in those areas.

I've known about balancing over ferrite for years and have used the trick many times on the GPX series detectors to good effect on iron rich areas.
So I can see it will be very useful In SOME areas Just like it was before.

But if you use it in an area with little/no Iron content you are canceling out targets that fall in the range of the ferrite signal for no reason as there is no need to do so, and you would in fact be throwing the ground balance out by using ferrite in these areas.
As I stated previously.

JP if I am incorrect please enlighten me how this will assist in areas with little/no Iron, I would appreciate it greatly.

Hi Dale, obviously the "Walk and Sweep" method of ground balancing the GPZ is still viable and current so by all means use that method.

Please read the new Minelab KBA white paper which I collaborated on with Bruce Candy for more info.

Minelab Dust Iron Ferrite GB White Paper

JP

Jonathan Porter wrote:Hi Dale, obviously the "Walk and Sweep" method of ground balancing the GPZ is still viable and current so by all means use that method.

Please read the new Minelab KBA white paper which I collaborated on with Bruce Candy for more info.

Minelab Dust Iron Ferrite GB White Paper

JP

I read the paper JP
I still can't see how this can help in areas with little Iron content
But in a lot of areas high iron mineralization is common in a lot of gold fields particularly in the west so I can see it being very useful in them.
I would really like to know how it would be of use in low Iron areas though.

I thank you and Bruce for developing such a great detector I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to start an argument or discredit what you are saying JP I just like to know everything I can as my living depends on my capability to make the right decisions.

The ZED has already proved its self to us, and I have since sold my 5k's and and SDC's as the ZED made them obsolete for me!!!
I really can't wait until we get a coil 20in or bigger for the ZED!!!!!!!

Hi JP
Mate I had a read of the article & it sounds feasible (I have not heard of this before) I may have missed something, but I did not see any explanation as to when or why you may choose to use this method, do you mind elaborating on this for us???

Hi Dale as I said......

Jonathan Porter wrote:........obviously the "Walk and Sweep" method of ground balancing the GPZ is still viable and current so by all means use that method.

JP

Jonathan Porter wrote:Hi Dale as I said......

Jonathan Porter wrote:........obviously the "Walk and Sweep" method of ground balancing the GPZ is still viable and current so by all means use that method.

JP

Sorry Mate
I get it now Just as I thought the ferrite is only useful for areas with Iron content.
And the normal process for the others.
Its going to be up to the savy operator to carefully chose which process is going to better suit the ground to get the most performance out of the detector.

Thanks for the Info I already have ferrite in my detecting kit so I'll give it a go in 2 days when my first serious trip of the season starts.

Thanks for the performance enhancing tip and on going support of the ZED!!!

As Goldhound and others have stated, using ferrite is not a new concept
Many early VLF users, White's and Garrett Groundhog operators glued a ferrite disk to a sweet spot on top of their coils to assist with ground balance

However with a machine as Technically advanced as the 7000, I feel that the need for ground balancing over ferrite, is a band aid solution for an underlying Ground Balance firmware or possible coil issue.

Quote from the ML Ground balance Paper

"In order to artificially add extra data for improved ground balance
calibration, you can use a dust iron toroid"

One would have expected that this extra data would or should have been included in the original ground balance code/routine.

yellowfin wrote:As Goldhound and others have stated, using ferrite is not a new concept
Many early VLF users, White's and Garrett Groundhog operators glued a ferrite disk to a sweet spot on top of their coils to assist with ground balance

However with a machine as Technically advanced as the 7000, I feel that the need for ground balancing over ferrite, is a band aid solution for an underlying Ground Balance firmware or possible coil issue.

Quote from the ML Ground balance Paper

"In order to artificially add extra data for improved ground balance
calibration, you can use a dust iron toroid"

One would have expected that this extra data would or should have been included in the original ground balance code/routine.





 



     
   

I think minelab is copping flack because there are a lot of incompetent operators that don't really understand how to work their detector or read the ground they are working in to chose the right settings and pick typical ground to balance in.
I've taken mine to many different areas to test it in different conditions and never had any problems that I couldn't fix, in fact any problem I had was because I did something wrong because I was experimenting.
I do how ever blame minelab for over simplifying the manual they could have explained a few things a lot better and then there would have been less problems.
Not everyone who reads the manual is a technical retard and those who can understand usually pass the explanation on to others through things like this good forum

In time I think people will see the real potential of ZVT and how much better than all previous technology it actually is when you know how to use it!
Its just a bit of history repeating its exactly like when the SD2000 came out.
Certain people will complain others will clean up!

 
[/quote]
I think minelab is copping flack because there are a lot of incompetent operators that don't really understand how to work their detector or read the ground they are working in to chose the right settings and pick typical ground to balance in.

I do how ever blame minelab for over simplifying the manual they could have explained a few things a lot better and then there would have been less problems.
Not everyone who reads the manual is a technical retard and those who can understand usually pass the explanation on to others through things like this good forum

In time I think people will see the real potential of ZVT and how much better than all previous technology it actually is when you know how to use it!
Its just a bit of history repeating its exactly like when the SD2000 came out.
Certain people will complain others will clean up![/quote]


Fully agree with your comments above, however two white paper releases (after the release of the machine) and no training offered has not helped ML's, customer image.
Compared to the 5000 the 7000 is an easy machine to drive, as long as you don't try and drive it like a 5000
First timers seem to struggle less with the 7000 than a lot of seasoned 5000 operators.

ZVT is a shed load better than previous technology, but unfortunately in the 7000's case it's still a bit of a beta release IMHO.

Lets say Minelab develop an improved algorithm for the ground balance on the GPZ 7000. The update to the firmware would benefit all the existing detectors currently sold. How will Minelab implement the upgrade to the existing customer base?

Just about everything with a reasonable level of electronic complexity can be upgraded, (firmware) thru a connection to a PC and the internet. I dont see where Minelab have provided the GPZ 7000 with a PC software application for performing this basic and essential task. We routinely update our GPS devices, cameras, phones, etc, and so should we be able to update the expensive GPZ 7000. Regardless of how long this device was field tested, improvements will always be found and the hardware can be made to better function with improved algorithms and bug fixes.

We should not have to buy a new detector just to get an update to make existing hardware function to its full potential. I would like to hear from a Minelab technical representative about how the current customer base will be supported as bugs and improvements are found for the current GPZ 7000 hardware!

Ian

Fully agree with your comments above, however two white paper releases (after the release of the machine) and no training offered has not helped ML's, customer image.
Compared to the 5000 the 7000 is an easy machine to drive, as long as you don't try and drive it like a 5000
First timers seem to struggle less with the 7000 than a lot of seasoned 5000 operators.

ZVT is a shed load better than previous technology, but unfortunately in the 7000's case it's still a bit of a beta release IMHO.
  [/quote]

Mate I went to the lesson every time I bought a new detector.
And was thoroughly dissaponited every time as the guys they use for lessons could not answer any of my technical questions and had WAY less prospecting experience than me.
They were a Waist of time!

1anSDC wrote:Lets say Minelab develop an improved algorithm for the ground balance on the GPZ 7000. The update to the firmware would benefit all the existing detectors currently sold. How will Minelab implement the upgrade to the existing customer base?

Just about everything with a reasonable level of electronic complexity can be upgraded, (firmware) thru a connection to a PC and the internet. I dont see where Minelab have provided the GPZ 7000 with a PC software application for performing this basic and essential task. We routinely update our GPS devices, cameras, phones, etc, and so should we be able to update the expensive GPZ 7000. Regardless of how long this device was field tested, improvements will always be found and the hardware can be made to better function with improved algorithms and bug fixes.

We should not have to buy a new detector just to get an update to make existing hardware function to its full potential. I would like to hear from a Minelab technical representative about how the current customer base will be supported as bugs and improvements are found for the current GPZ 7000 hardware!

Ian

You can update the firmware through the Exchange2 program the same as on the CTX.
I don't think it NEEDS an update it performs really good how it is!!!
Its peoples lack of understanding and minelabs inability to explain critical aspects of the detectors settings and how to apply them and how the new technology actually works that cause the problems.
I'm not saying there is not room for improvement there is!
And I would gladly except firmware updates even if I had to pay for them!

Thanks Goldhound for the heads up on the software. I thought this was only for detector setting and gps data.

On page 47 of the manual we find one sentence that may indicate future updates to the GPZ's firmware may be possible. Copy and paste from the manual below...

Minelab XChange 2
The GPZ 7000 has a USB connector on the rear of the
control panel. This allows you to connect your GPZ 7000
to a PC and download/upload GeoStore data and detector
settings.
Using the XChange 2 application you can plot your
GPS location data on Google Maps, and add photos,
comments, and GPS data. You can also upgrade your
detector.

If Minelab can assure me that they will be providing future updates and bug fixes for the detector, as indicated by the sentence from the manual I placed in bold text, then that will reassure current owners that their investment is sound and be the incentive I need to buy this detector!

I have been holding off buying this detector as I have a technical background in electronics and am cautious about buying V1.0 of any new technology.

Question to Minelab
Minelab, will firmware updates be made available for this detector and will they be owner up-gradable through the use of XChange 2 ?

Ian

1anSDC wrote:

.

Question to Minelab
Minelab, will firmware updates be made available for this detector and will they be owner up-gradable through the use of XChange 2 ?

Ian

They said the same spill when the CTX3030 1st came out as well and since then we've only had the "salt water" upgrade and none since then

I assume the Z is heading down the same path like Dale , I also dont mind paying for firmware upgrades as long as they happen

But who knows when this will occur

Cheers Marty

GoldHound wrote:


Fully agree with your comments above, however two white paper releases (after the release of the machine) and no training offered has not helped ML's, customer image.
Compared to the 5000 the 7000 is an easy machine to drive, as long as you don't try and drive it like a 5000
First timers seem to struggle less with the 7000 than a lot of seasoned 5000 operators.

ZVT is a shed load better than previous technology, but unfortunately in the 7000's case it's still a bit of a beta release IMHO.
  

Mate I went to the lesson every time I bought a new detector.
And was thoroughly dissaponited every time as the guys they use for lessons could not answer any of my technical questions and had WAY less prospecting experience than me.
They were a Waist of time!
 [/quote]

I was thinking more along the lines of basic machine operation training , such as ground balance, search modes rather than prospecting training.
I've not had a problem coming to grips with the 7000 but others have, as seen by some of the questions asked on this forum.

GoldHound wrote:

Jonathan Porter wrote:Hi Dale as I said......

Jonathan Porter wrote:........obviously the "Walk and Sweep" method of ground balancing the GPZ is still viable and current so by all means use that method.

JP

Sorry Mate
I get it now Just as I thought the ferrite is only useful for areas with Iron content.
And the normal process for the others.
Its going to be up to the savy operator to carefully chose which process is going to better suit the ground to get the most performance out of the detector.

Thanks for the Info I already have ferrite in my detecting kit so I'll give it a go in 2 days when my first serious trip of the season starts.

Thanks for the performance enhancing tip and on going support of the ZED!!!

Mate you really need to use the special ML ferrite    

Quote from the white paper

"Further technical information
A ‘dust iron’ toroid suitable for the HF frequency band (e.g.1–30MHz
with an initial permeability of between 6 and 10) has been carefully
selected. It is recommended to use this specific Minelab accessory,
only. Alternate ferrites may significantly degrade ground balance
quality"

Martin R wrote:

1anSDC wrote:

.

Question to Minelab
Minelab, will firmware updates be made available for this detector and will they be owner up-gradable through the use of XChange 2 ?

Ian

They said the same spill when the CTX3030 1st came out as well and since then we've only had the "salt water" upgrade and none since then

I assume the Z is heading down the same path like Dale , I also dont mind paying for firmware upgrades as long as they happen

But who knows when this will occur

Cheers Marty

Well we have had one update so far, "The Ferrite" update
I'm waiting for the next two, a bucket of Wedderburn dirt and some WA Salt