Understanding your rights and obligations of entry onto WA pastoral leases

Gday


After a recent word exchange with a pastoral lease holder I decided to re read the Department of mines and patroleum guidlines covering holders of a miners right here in WA.

Sometimes when you are away you want to look at some ground that may have caught your eye from the road or whatever, in some cases you are purely just looking and dont do any detecting but purely looking for interesting terrain etc with the view of visiting sometime in the future.

This is exactly what the case was, we were confronted by a pastoral lease holder who demanded to know what we were doing there, and the conversation went as follows:

Firstly I will give you a picture of the events preceeding the altercation, we entered through a gate that carried a sign saying no camping shooting fires etc, we closed the gate and proceeded to an area that appeared to be scraped and worked, we stopped for about 15 mins and had some lunch, after having a brief walk about we decided to move on, so we were there probably about 30 mins in total.

Suddenly out of the track that leads to the main track a 4wd ute came boring down on us, pulling up in a cloud of dust the driver screams at me:

"Do you mind explaining to me what the F... do you think you are doing here?
I replied "Just stopped in for a bit of a look"
He said "Cant you read the f.. sign"
I said "what sign" as I had forgotten about the sign on the gate (the legality of which I am looking into)
He said "you didnt ask my permission to be here"
I said "I wasnt intending on staying as we were just about to leave when you pulled up"
He said "you have to have my permission and you dont so f... off now"
I said " I have to advise you that I am here but do not require your permission.
His partner said "We own this place and you cant just come in here"
I said "you dont own it its a pastoral lease and its crown land and I have the right to access it also."
He said " If you dont leave now you will be sorry so f...off now!

Ok so now he's got my back up

I said "so what are you going to do?

He said " f... off now

In the end I just said to him something about you need to read up on your rights and obligations as well, and perhaps brush up on your approach to people etc etc, and then said "ok see ya later" and started to drive away.

He followed some distance behind until we reached the gate, also the station house is about 30 klm further in from that point as we were only in about 2 klm from the gate.


Anyway I agree that I probably should have handled it a bit better too but his total agression and attitiude right from the start made it impossible to have a decent conversation with the guy, by the look of him he looks as though he were a caretaker rather than the leaseholder, dishevelled and untidy in appearance, he was agressive, rude and obviously had no idea what his rights or obligations were, the thing that sticks in my mind was the fact that they believe that they OWN the place?

I would be interested in hearing other peoples opinions on this subject and what you believe are your rights and obligations towards leaseholders as well, I have been doing this along time and confrontations like this are rare, and even so they can still take you by surprise.

http://www.dmp.wa.gov.au/documents/Info2(4).pdf

cheers

stayyerAU

hey stayyerAU
i think you done well.... if they had signs up shouldn't it have no detecting as well? it just sound like anyone can go there as it's goverment grounds but they are just working it and saying it's there land...is there anyway you can find out if it's under a lease?
cheers
stoppsy

Outnumbered? No problems. Introduce them to your two mates, Smith & Wesson, argument solved. I miss the days of the wild wild west.

Should of told him that you have a " 45 " in the back of your truck !!

Now now gentlemen that sounds a little extreme. Perhaps just ignoring him altogether and leaving there asap would have been in order. I know if i had a lease or something like that and i was finding gold i would want to protect it! I think we all would but i would never talk to a stranger like that for that reason. He had no right to talk to you like that stayyerAu. Some people are just wired like that "Half Full or Half Empty" . The lesson here is knowing your rights which is obviously a teaching in its self in the wa gold fields.

Kind Regards
Dani

An aggresive Pastoral lease holder is not something I have come across. All the PLH people I have met have been very polite and friendly. Not that all of them have given permission to detect the one noteable case was a PLH near Kookynie. But it is difficult for a person to be aggressive and rude when the newcomer gives a big friendly smile and shakes your hand as he introduces himself to you.

Also, as my wife is always with me you will find this makes a difference, especially if you are visiting the homestead, most PLH womenfolk are glad to meet another woman because even if they live within an hours drive of town they already know most folk in the district and a new face is always interesting and welcome.

We used to do a lot of detecting in Victoria and always got on well with the land owners. If we found several bits on their property we would give them a nugget as a thank you. This is also a good idea no matter where you detect. You'd be surprised at how many folk allow prospectors on their property and yet they never see any gold themselves. The men may not be interested but the ladies love a bit of gold, especially if it is made into jewellry. I have made many small nuggets into pendants, (the clear variety) and ear studs and presented them to the property owners and PLH.

In this way we are always welcomed back and we have become good friends with most of those people. In Victoria, at Christmas, we would also present the property owners with something like goumet cheese, port and the like. And when we had found some old ink line maps of the area that included the original name and bounderies of their property we would give them a copy.

It costs very little to show your appreciation and it reaps rewards far outweighing the value of the gift, friendship being the greeatest rewrd of all.

Cheers, Jim

Gday

I would never promote the use of violence towards someone in these sorts of conflicts and would only react physically if I were attacked first, but I can however become vocal and say what I have to say, by becoming violent you are only lowering yourself to their level, ignorant people mostly use violence as they do not have the knowledge or brainpower to carry on an educated arguement.

Anyone who knows me, also knows that I am not easily intimidated or pushed too far, but I have won some of my best fights using common sense and knowledge, even though I had the right to be there and our intentions were innocent I still decided to just move on and by doing so diffused the arguement.

Dani, the person was not a gold lease owner, but told me he was the pastoral lease holder, so the issue was not about being on his gold lease, you are still even allowed to drive through and camp on some gold leases as long as you are not detecting, this guys problem seemed to me is he thinks he's in the wild west and probably has a fantasy that he is Ben Cartwright and that he was on the Ponderosa, but at the end of the day he was no Danny Green and if he keeps approaching people in that manner he is likely to get his lights put out.

There are common sense ways of approaching people and your language and demeanor although constrained and regulated can be a powerful tool, if you come in with all guns blazing you are certainly going to get a similar reaction from most people, this person behaved like a tool and he got back what he asked for, regrettably on my part, as I would have preferred not to have spoken to him at all as it dims my view of other people in that same position.

If he had approached us in a different manner the coversation would have been quite different and both parties would have parted in a better frame of mind.

cheers

stayyerAU

stayer, i was in WA for the first time last september. had got to leonora and the famed and well written about specking patch, well known to all australian detectorites.
first stop was to the mines department, bought a department info map, confirmed it was not under lease to a mining company, had a good talk to the lady about how helpful they were to qld visitors, and after spending money on fuel, food, beer, i proceeded to the famed area.

after one day there, the 4b with the overseer turns up, orders me and everybody else, (about 10 of us) off the place. i showed him the map, told him the story, but he was adamant i had no right to be there.

he eventually admitted, after i was not backing down, that a mining company had recently applied for a lease on that area. the mines dept had no such "application applied for" at that stage or they would have told me.

he graciously allowed me to camp that night, but - woe and behold if i wasnt gone the next morning.

i am a member of the WA forum and have had several people talking about - the specking patch - since then, but nobody has mentioned about it being now under lease? just curious.

that same attitude of leaseholder graziers of crown land was the dominant attitude, and most tried to bluff me off their place, but with the mines department paperwork and knowledge showing it NOT restricted, they eventually backed down.

so there it is, mostely BLUFF ... kev

Below is an excerpt from my latest Gold Prospecting Locations WA "Menzies To Wiluna". We asked permission and were freely given it. Get to know Wayne and his dad and you'll find they are nice folk.

Cheers, Jim

Most people who have been detecting in WA for any length of time have heard of the famous Specking Patch at Leonora. It has been producing nuggets for over 100 years and continues to do so today. Access is easy for caravans and all vehicles but before entering the Specking Patch you must now gain permission. The pastoral lease has recently changed hands and conditions have changed. For permission to enter you can either ring the owner, Wayne Taylor, on 0417965292 or drop into his fathers business at the corner of Otterburn and Rajah Streets. (See Google Earth image of Leonora)

It is always best to contact the PLH out of respect, just to let them know you are on the land and roughly where abouts, as some of these leases stretch for an enormous area.
I spent several years working on the mines (some of which was in exploration), and we would always contact the PLH to let them know we were going to be on the land and in what rough area we would be. I found these people to be very nice and accomodating (maybe because if we found a good paying deposit then they knew they would be entitled to a cut in it ) Anyway, these leaseholders sometimes have workers out shooting dogs etc and we all knbow what the consequences of a stray bullet can do!!!!
I def dont agree with some of the above comments regarding firearms. You pull a gun out and you are in for a whole new ball game. Violence vs violence -------- Not good.

these type of people, either lease holder or detector holder, need to be told straight away that "I'm a mirror to your attitude"

For us newbies how do you know which lease extends to where - say you have pinpointed an area on a map you want to go to how could I find which pastoral lease it is on. Then where do I find the phone number or contact details of the pastoral lease holder.

Serendipity,

The pastoral lease boundries are available on Tengraph. Once you have found that then under the new rules you have to apply to the DME for contact details.


To all others. StayerAU has put up a link for the data required. Study it well people and know you rights and obligations. You can either print off a couple of copies or call into the DME offices and get a free brochures off the counter. I carry a spare so as to offer it to any pastoral lease holder who is confrontational.

Courtesy is the key here. Be aware they do get a lot of problems from people who dont give a toss.

Driller

Hi Serendipity
It is the responsibility of the prospector to know exactly where they are ie: ground position. It is not hard to get the info needed. I mainly work out of WA but have worked in and used the NT and NSW systems. All the info is on line but when you have that you also need to be able to use a GPS. Once again not hard. If you can post here you can use a GPS.
The key is to do a few days homework before you leave, especially if it's an extended trip. Just use Google and type in things like: Mines Department, Pastoral holdings and any thing else you what to know, for the state you want to be in, and have an arvo surfing the information highway.
As a larger leaseholder in WA I have struck the, I don't know where I am and can you show me where to find Gold that many times it wears a bit thin, especially when I find sometimes up to 5 or more caravans camped on my tenements. After telling them that you can't detect here because I make my living out of finding Gold, I then offer to tell them where they can detect with no problems from the lease holder, and where Gold has been found before, only then to see GPS's, topo maps and tengraph maps being pulled out from all over the place.
Hope you see my point.

horseshoe wrote:Hi Serendipity
It is the responsibility of the prospector to know exactly where they are ie: ground position. It is not hard to get the info needed. I mainly work out of WA but have worked in and used the NT and NSW systems. All the info is on line but when you have that you also need to be able to use a GPS. Once again not hard. If you can post here you can use a GPS.
The key is to do a few days homework before you leave, especially if it's an extended trip. Just use Google and type in things like: Mines Department, Pastoral holdings and any thing else you what to know, for the state you want to be in, and have an arvo surfing the information highway.
As a larger leaseholder in WA I have struck the, I don't know where I am and can you show me where to find Gold that many times it wears a bit thin, especially when I find sometimes up to 5 or more caravans camped on my tenements. After telling them that you can't detect here because I make my living out of finding Gold, I then offer to tell them where they can detect with no problems from the lease holder, and where Gold has been found before, only then to see GPS's, topo maps and tengraph maps being pulled out from all over the place.
Hope you see my point.

You are a gentleman Horseshoe !! many others would blow up at that point !!

Thanks Murachu,
I have been known to weaken on the odd occasion but only for husband and wife teams and only if they are farmers, retired or otherwise.
There was only 1 person that after showing him my lease boundaries, was caught detecting where I showed him not to. He got both barrels and has never come back to the district.

Gday


The main issue with this confrontation was the sheer aggression of the person involved, I understand that some of these leaseholders have had to deal with all types of people and are more than likely sick and tired of it, but the moral of the story is if you want respect from people and you want them to understand your position then confronting them with foul langauge and threats is definately not the way you should do it.

I did not add this bit, but later that day some klms from that place the UHF radio while on scan picked up the tail end of a conversation, where the talker was telling another person that he had a confrontation with someone that day, and he clearly stated that "I could not believe how aggressive this guy was" I gather he was talking about me, if I had heard the beginning of the conversation and was sure it was me he was talking about I would have broken into the conversation and told him that he needed to brush up on his people skills and that he has no legal right or otherwise to try and bully anyone.

That part made me and my mate laugh as he was clearly the agressor and only got back the same attitude that he gave out, the blokes obviously been out in the heat too long if he thinks that his bully boy tactics will not result in him being lifted if he tried it on the wrong person.

99.9% of the leaseholders I have met have been genuine and friendly and have been more than happy for us to be there, so I am polite and curtious to them, but I also believe that I have the right to have my say and that they also have an obligation to allow me my rights as well, as a result of this I will probably be in contact with the leaseholders and graziers dept and make them aware that they have members who clearly are not aware that as the holder of a lease on crown land they are not the land owners, and dont have the legal right to try and eject people without reason, another factor that I didnt mention was on this particular property there is a scenic lookout that I would imagine be visited by tourists through the area as well as its marked on the map, I wonder if this person has confronted tourists to the spot in the same way?

Anyway thats another story I guess.

cheers

stayyerAU

Gday


I just wanted to add "This was a pastoral lease" the person involved stated he was the "pastoral lease" holder it was not a "mining lease" and the arguement was not about detecting on it as we were just looking about the place, it was simply because we were there not because we were doing any detecting.

The guy may detect the area himself and that could be why he was so agressive, but in any case he still did not have the right to behave in the foolish manner that he did, one of the things I have noticed with some of these types is they are extremely quick to try and give you a serve when they find you somewhere they have an interest in, but they themselves are doing the exact same thing on their neighbours leases, I have seen many examples of this in many different areas so I am aware what goes on, its hypocritical to say the least.

cheers

stayyerAU

Yes stayyerAU I agree wholeheartedly with where you are coming from on this point .I think they are the ones to stamp their feet when its a wrong against them but when they do it to someone else its a different story!!!! or they defend someone who had done the wrong thing and get all uppity about it !!

I asked before how to find the pastoral leases and someone said look on tenegraph. I can find most stuff there but not a pastoral lease. Well I can get it to show the color of pastoral leases but no details like what the lease is called or how far it extends.

Can anyone point to a page or steps to show pastoral leases. First step in making contact is finding which pastoral lease I want to go on.

Cheers

If you're in the right, and sure of it.. and not too physically afraid of the clown that's turned up & told you to f**k off, why wouldn't you just tell them to call the cops, and continue on regardless?

horseshoe wrote: He got both barrels and has never come back to the district.

Hope your referring to your mouth because if it were a shotgun you should be doing time for that...