Face Masks

adrian ss Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:40 am

Even though I believe that wearing a face mask to help defend against the spread of the Corona Virus is better than doing nothing, I feel that fining people for not wearing them is a bit rude when we are told that we can make our own from a bit of cloth or wear a bandanna but that these masks are near on useless in protecting against this virus.
What this means is that we only have to cover our mouth and nose so it looks like we are wearing a mask and that if you don't look like you are wearing one you could be fined. They might as well fine us for not sneezing into our sleeve or handkerchief. I am not surprised that people are objecting to being stopped by police for not wearing a mask that has been deemed to be almost useless by so called medical professionals. Then others say that the masks could even help spread the virus if not disposed of in a correct and safe manner...Whatever that means?

What is a Professional?
One definition states that a professional is a person who derives their income from a trained discipline.

Another definition of a professional by people with tickets on themselves.
DEFINITION

The Australian Council of Professions defines a ‘Profession‘ as:

A Profession is a disciplined group of individuals who adhere to ethical standards and who hold themselves out as, and are accepted by the public as possessing special knowledge and skills in a widely recognised body of learning derived from research, education and training at a high level, and who are prepared to apply this knowledge and exercise these skills in the interest of others. It is inherent in the definition of a Profession that a code of ethics governs the activities of each Profession. Such codes require behaviour and practice beyond the personal moral obligations of an individual. They define and demand high standards of behaviour in respect to the services provided to the public and in dealing with professional colleagues. Further, these codes are enforced by the Profession and are acknowledged and accepted by the community.

Australian Council of Professions, 2003

So it would seem that the above professionals rate themselves higher than other professionals.

Which professionals told us that masks were useless and which one's tell us that we should be fined if we do not wear one

Kon61gold Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:23 pm

Adrian, it is the Australian Council Of Professions that gives the best description/definition of what a professional working in their their profession should do, be or stand for. The first 2 definitions defining what a professional in their profession is, leaves a lot to be considered & a little to vague & open to scrutiny.
The only professionals that can rate themselves higher in their line of work, over another, are professionals in the same line of work. (for have you not heard the saying "there are tradies & there are tradies Shocked

") for what good is a mechanic, when in an emergency I need a qualified doctor or vice versa. Each according to their profession, for neither are above each other, less ones income.
The wearing of face masks is not the do all end all Adrian, but a safety precaution/measure taken, in order to confine the breathing or coughing out into the open air, by someone who might have the virus unknowingly, decreasing the chance of spread of this deadly & highly contagious outbreak. Of course even the wearing of appropriate face masks or protective clothing, in a confined space, place or locality, tending to people infected with the COVID-19 virus, puts one at far greater risk of contracting such a virus, even with protective gear on, than someone shopping quite comfortably under wide open spaces/places, with plenty of room for social distancing.
The laws of each state dictate what we are allowed to do, or not do & must be adhered to for the sake & safety of us all.

Kon. T25

planetcare Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:28 pm

Kon61gold wrote:Adrian, it is the Australian Council Of Professions that gives the best description/definition of what a professional working in their their profession should do, be or stand for. The first 2 definitions defining what a professional in their profession is, leaves a lot to be considered & a little to vague & open to scrutiny.
The only professionals that can rate themselves higher in their line of work, over another, are professionals in the same line of work. (for have you not heard the saying "there are tradies & there are tradies ") for what good is a mechanic, when in an emergency I need a qualified doctor or vice versa. Each according to their profession, for neither are above each other, less ones income.
The wearing of face masks is not the do all end all Adrian, but a safety precaution/measure taken, in order to confine the breathing or coughing out into the open air, by someone who might have the virus unknowingly, decreasing the chance of spread of this deadly & highly contagious outbreak. Of course even the wearing of appropriate face masks or protective clothing, in a confined space, place or locality, tending to people infected with the COVID-19 virus, puts one at far greater risk of contracting such a virus, even with protective gear on, than someone shopping quite comfortably under wide open spaces/places, with plenty of room for social distancing.
The laws of each state dictate what we are allowed to do, or not do & must be adhered to for the sake & safety of us all.

Kon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tp0zB904Mc

adrian ss Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:17 am

That is a very very misleading video.
Sure it shows the movement of air of differing temperatures but it does not give a true indication of how much virus and germ matter can pass through.

When I view my home made face mask through my microscope at 1000 magnification I can see clearly through the weave. In order to see a virus as clearly as I can see the holes in the weave of my mask I would require 100,000 x magnification. The vid is bs where stopping virus travel/flow is concerned.

planetcare Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:58 am

planetcare Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:03 am

adrian ss wrote:That is a very very misleading video.
Sure it shows the movement of air of differing temperatures but it does not give a true indication of how much virus and germ matter can pass through.

When I view my home made face mask through my microscope at 1000 magnification I can see clearly through the weave. In order to see a virus as clearly as I can see the holes in the weave of my mask I would require 100,000 x magnification. The vid is bs where stopping virus travel/flow is concerned.

Adrian the evidence is now clear: surgical masks reduce the transmission of corona virus.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

adrian ss Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:49 am

Yes surgical masks do help but I am going on about the home made types and the fact that people are being fined for not wearing a mask. If the only mask they have access to is a home made mask and home made masks are near on useless yet they will not be fined for wearing a useless mask. So why should they be fined for not wearing a mask.

deutran Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:14 am

Here Adrian is something to take your mind off the virus for a while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c2FMJtIW7E

planetcare Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:19 am

adrian ss wrote:Yes surgical masks do help but I am going on about the home made types and the fact that people are being fined for not wearing a mask. If the only mask they have access to is a home made mask and home made masks are near on useless yet they will not be fined for wearing a useless mask. So why should they be fined for not wearing a mask.

Adrian look at the evidence. Even cloth masks are better than nothing! Their are plenty of surgical masks available so everybody could get them and wear them
Universal use of face masks for success against COVID-19: evidence and implications for prevention policies
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191114/

Face masks critical in preventing spread of COVID-19
Study found that wearing a face mask stopped person-to-person spread of the virus
Date: June 12, 2020
Source: Texas A&M University
Summary: A study has found that not wearing a face mask dramatically increases a person's chances of being infected by the COVID-19 virus
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200612172200.htm

Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2820%2931142-9/fulltext#

“Thus we recommend the adoption of public cloth mask wearing, as an effective form of source control, in conjunction with existing hygiene, distancing, and contact tracing strategies. We recommend that public officials and governments strongly encourage the use of widespread face masks in public, including the use of appropriate regulation.”
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340603522_Face_Masks_Against_COVID-19_An_Evidence_Review

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks
“Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

bicter Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:25 am

adrian ss wrote:That is a very very misleading video.
Sure it shows the movement of air of differing temperatures but it does not give a true indication of how much virus and germ matter can pass through.

When I view my home made face mask through my microscope at 1000 magnification I can see clearly through the weave. In order to see a virus as clearly as I can see the holes in the weave of my mask I would require 100,000 x magnification. The vid is bs where stopping virus travel/flow is concerned.

Adrian,
I think the point you're missing is that a virus need a carrier to be transmitted.
If you reduce how much the carrier is transmitted then logically you have reduced the amount of virus is transmitted. Therefore the fact that the weave of a face-mask isn't as small as a virus is not important, so long as it is small/dense enough to reduce the quantity of the media carrying the virus and the intensity the media is transmitted (ie distance).

Once it's understood that masks, homemade or otherwise, are effective in reducing the spread of the carrier borne virus, then the next question is how much of the virus does a person need to be exposed to for transmission to occur.
I don't know the answer to that.
I'm assuming that being exposed to one particle of infected carrier doesn't cause an infection but 100 particles may.
This is where the reduction in intensity of sneezes etc through the use of a face mask is important and where it ties in with the 1.5m distancing requirement. Remember the inverse square law?

BTW, I haven't viewed the video Smile

planetcare Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:37 am

bicter wrote:
adrian ss wrote:That is a very very misleading video.
Sure it shows the movement of air of differing temperatures but it does not give a true indication of how much virus and germ matter can pass through.

When I view my home made face mask through my microscope at 1000 magnification I can see clearly through the weave. In order to see a virus as clearly as I can see the holes in the weave of my mask I would require 100,000 x magnification. The vid is bs where stopping virus travel/flow is concerned.

Adrian,
I think the point you're missing is that a virus need a carrier to be transmitted.
If you reduce how much the carrier is transmitted then logically you have reduced the amount a virus is transmitted. Therefore the fact that the weave of a face-mask isn't as small as a virus is not important, so long as it is small/dense enough to reduce the quantity of the media carrying the virus and the intensity the media is transmitted (ie distance).

Cloth Masks May Prevent Transmission of COVID-19: An Evidence-Based, Risk-Based Approach
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2567

5 Questions: Stanford scientists on COVID-19 mask guidelines
Scientists say we should wear masks to control the spread of COVID-19. Stanford experts share the evidence that informed the World Health Organization’s recommendations.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html

Kon61gold Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:42 pm

Adrian, members on here have gone out of their way towards giving you not only facts, but some sound scientific, medical fact/common sense advice, as to how the wearing of face masks reduce the flow of contagious virus spread into the open air. Now you can go against the flow of proven scientific fact as much as you want, but I doubt you'll find any carer, nurse, qualified doctor/surgeon/ or scientist for that matter, that will agree in your way of thinking.
It is now law (not what each one believes it is, or thinks it should be) but law, as to all Melbournians within designated COVID-19 infected localities, to be wearing face masks for the prevention or reducing the spreading of COVID-19, regardless of whether their face masks are home made or not. The ones that are being fined, are the ones blatantly flouting the law, with complete disregard/disrespect for the safety of others as well as themselves.

Kon. T25

adrian ss Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:01 pm

There ya go, got some good replies there aye.
FYI we wear face masks when we go to the shops. The three ply type. No idea if they do anything but we wear them anyway. Wink

adrian ss Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:06 pm

bicter wrote:
adrian ss wrote:That is a very very misleading video.
Sure it shows the movement of air of differing temperatures but it does not give a true indication of how much virus and germ matter can pass through.

When I view my home made face mask through my microscope at 1000 magnification I can see clearly through the weave. In order to see a virus as clearly as I can see the holes in the weave of my mask I would require 100,000 x magnification. The vid is bs where stopping virus travel/flow is concerned.

Adrian,
I think the point you're missing is that a virus need a carrier to be transmitted.
If you reduce how much the carrier is transmitted then logically you have reduced the amount of virus is transmitted. Therefore the fact that the weave of a face-mask isn't as small as a virus is not important, so long as it is small/dense enough to reduce the quantity of the media carrying the virus and the intensity the media is transmitted (ie distance).

Once it's understood that masks, homemade or otherwise, are effective in reducing the spread of the carrier borne virus, then the next question is how much of the virus does a person need to be exposed to for transmission to occur.
I don't know the answer to that.
I'm assuming that being exposed to one particle of infected carrier doesn't cause an infection but 100 particles may.
This is where the reduction in intensity of sneezes etc through the use of a face mask is important and where it ties in with the 1.5m distancing requirement. Remember the inverse square law?

BTW, I haven't viewed the video

I guess in theory at least it only takes one virus cell to infect a person. That one cell if it survives it will reproduce pretty quickly once it loges in a living cell and then cell damage will begin to occur as reproduction continues.

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