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Post  bungarra on Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:55 am

Just back from 10 days in the Eastern goldfields (NE Kalgoorlie) to give you an idea of the ground. I will summarise in bullets to keep this post brief
*  There were 3 of us and we consider ourselves reasonably experienced
* We had with us 2 of our GPX5000
* A GPX 4500
* SDC 2300
* Two of the new GPZ7000

Reading the book for set up meant a noisy unusable ground noise.....but it was in very mineralised ground....BUT the 2300 handled the ground easily...the 45 and 5000 had some trouble....the salt coil on the 5000 was quiet

Moved to new quiet ground 150km's away and made a Sat phone call to dealer and did the following
* we reset the 7000 to factory settings...a Total reset
* with the exception of auto smoothing being turned off...
* followed the Minelab release by Bruce Candy Knowledge Base Article precisely
* Dealer also told us not to use the trigger to ground balance manually for at least ONE hour after set up to allow the machine to do its auto thing

RESULT
* Detected on a patch of ours (very quiet ground) that we had pulled many nuggets off last year using 5000's and a 4500
* No one had been back there since our first visit
* The new 7000's quite as church mice..no ground noise
* We could scrape the ground and bump rocks with new issues of balance noise
* The 7000's were struggling to pick up our test nuggets ( approx. 1 gram and on the surface) and we knew where they were!
* Sensitivity and threshold adjustments did nothing to improve its detecting targets.
* Eventually tuned them to our best ability and tried detecting
* Yes we picked up some shot gun pellets (the target noise on these was so quiet (1 out of 10) the 2300 gave a 10 score !..as did the 4500 and 5000's
* back to pin pointing.....the 4 pellets I found did not respond in the scoop when waived over the top of the coil
* on each occasion I had to go back and retest the discard pile to find the pellets !
* the sensitivity of the coil when testing the sample with the scoop over top of it like we do on the previous machines...doesn't work until the sample is so small and scraping the top of the coil that you can see the damn thing anyway...and don't need the detector to tell you its in the scoop
* The 2300 picked up a number of smaller pieces...it SCREAMED 10 out of 10 on tiny bits
* Both the 4500 and the two 5000 found gold again as we were more methodical in cleaning the patch out
* The 2300 excelled and found gold behind the footprints of the 7000's  ( and the 4500 and 5000)

So in summary at this stage we are very disillusioned with the 7000's and until Minelab or some kind soul can help us or explain what we are doing wrong....I am back to using the 5000 so I don't leave any behind...in fact I came back yesterday short of my intended stay to get this damn thing tuned or whatever as its was a waste of time using them or staying there at this point.

I cant believe that Minelab could produce  the 2300 for example that is so user friendly and "points and shoots"...and screams loud at tiny targets   and can yet launch a 7000 for the price that underperforms so badly...at least in our case....in fact if there had not been 2 of these new machines with us we would have sent a single machine back as faulty

I retain my faith in Minelab but it is currently under sever question and hopefully its in the settings ?????....comments much appreciated
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Post  davsgold on Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:54 pm

G'day bungarra

Thanks for your honest report, I must say it's not what I wanted to hear, but from your trip and what you tried it seems you had no success with the new machines.

I just hope it was operator error and it can be sorted out for next time, but as you said your not new at this and so should have been able to get the damn thing working to an acceptable level.

cheers dave
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Post  Jonathan Porter on Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:59 pm

Hello bungarra, what Gold Mode and Ground Type were you using? Also Volume settings, Threshold, headphones, WM12 speaker or booster etc?

Thanks
JP
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Post  bungarra on Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:28 pm

HI Johnathon

We tried damn near everything but after the total factory default reset we settled on the following
* Gold Mode High Yield
* Ground type Difficult
* WM12 Speaker only
* Threshold Level 27
* Threshold Pitch 53
* Volume 16
* Sensitivity 9
* Auto smoothing off

We settled on the above settings basically factory default or close to it after trying above and below these. I don't have the other mates machine here to check but from memory all the same as above however he settled on a lower threshold than above

It made the machine very quiet (but the ground was naturally quiet) I guess the biggest apparent issue was its total lack of sensitivity......it simply struggled to find any target unless we knew it was there (test nuggets) as mentioned............yes it found some single shotgun pellets 4 times...but if we were not experienced and straining for a minor subtle change in target noise and checked for verification then they would never have been found..... a new chum would never have recognised the target noise.....in the scoop these had to be in almost in no dirt to be heard when scraped or waived on the top of the coil...and as also mentioned each of these I had to go back and find in the discard pile...and I am very methodical in checking my scoop and keeping its volume small

Thanks

Graeme

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Post  peterinaust on Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:49 pm

This is not good to hear. I will be watching with interest, been thinking of getting one. Can't have been two that are faulty??

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Post  searching on Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:45 pm

I find it hard to understand why your GPZ is having difficulty with shotty pellets - my total for yesterday was  40 of them, plus 5 other small pieces of junk. On the deeper targets, a small button at 8-9 inches and a small (5 cent) size piece of zinc at 15 inches. Unfortunatley, no gold! The signals on the Zed are not quite as sharp as the SDC 2300, but quite clear, even on the smallest sizes. While the  biggest piece of gold to report with the 7000 is only 3 Grams, I have confidence in its ability - just have to walk over that large dream piece.

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Post  bungarra on Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:22 pm

yes I am finding it hard to understand as well....hence the post on here...I am pinning my hopes on some settings however we spent a lot of time fiddling to improve the sensitivity and target noise level to no avail.......if you can find a shot gun pellet then technically you have the machine quite nicely tuned for a small gold target however these were subtle faint sounds as described and as for the coil pinging them in the scoop when waived or scraped above it....no go as described in the beginning of this thread

I remain convinced we were missing more shot pellets and the 2300 behind us proved the same for the small gold as well

would you care to state your settings and ground type?...........I really don't want to bag the machine however I have posted a honest review of our experiences of 2 of these and we are not new chums and would be delighted if it is a settings issue and everyone on here can get some constructive criticism to help all owners past and future
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Post  tricky 1 on Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:31 pm

It sounds very frustrating for you as the settings seem ok. my deepest today was a .6 at 13 inches and the deepest so far was a specie containing 3.5 g at 20 inches. both were accurately measured with picks and pinpointer while still in the hole.
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Post  goldquest on Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:03 pm

GPZ my rating 9 out of 10, very quiet, very sensitive, punch very deep, I could not be happier, money well spent, I am sorry for you but there must be something wrong with your machine, because I use the same setting, today I was at a training day with two other GPZ, same result.
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Post  bungarra on Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:57 pm

thanks...even more frustrating...but two new machines both behaving the same and faulty?....doesn't seem likely
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Post  kevlorraine2 on Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:31 pm

very disappointing to read of your failed trip. failing both machines being faulty, i can only suggest the following ---

did you tune the machines well away from the cars and other metal? and use them in the first hour or just let them sit?
reason i ask is -- i was testing my zed in the house a few nights back, at first all was fine and the response to small gold nugs waved over them (.2grams) was responsive to various adjustments of sensitivity and threshold as i would have expected. (i had tuned the machine where it sat in the house and it was running very quiet and as the coil was not being moved it stayed that way) but then i got called away, i left the machine on and motionless for about a half hour. on return the machine was equivalent to being in cancel mode of the 5000. my wedding ring could only be heard at about two inches over the coil.
this threw me for a bit, but next day i tested in the backyard and everything was fine. (the z can elimate the suburban electric interference quite well).

i was also testing today on a hot gold field, my machine works very well. my preferred settings compared to yours are --

your threshold seems way to high for the volume of 16, mine are more like 10 volume and threshold humm is acceptable at 23 and can disappear as you get lower numbers, but - strangely - this does not affect the coils sensitivity to smaller nugs. with my testing as i increase the sensitivity, i have to lower the threshold, and in all cases a volume at 16 would be way to high.


after my experience in the house, maybe you had something similar going on?

hope you get on to of it, cheers ... kev

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Post  gravel on Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:26 pm

The machine does not work incline well, in fact poorly, the 5000 had no issue relative.
It produces false high pitch signals when in contact with the ground debris of any kind
thus also producing a low end signal on pitch decline, making large areas unworkable.
This is consistent with the many operators i converse with.
Those who persist with claims of a best ever machine seem to have received the luck of the draw
with their purchase, or, as i suspect, have a basic aptitude to metal detecting.
The fact that the general setting is unable to manage a variety of debris renders the discussion on depth
proportionately invalid with the inevitable masking of targets via what i consider a design fault.
The ground balance tends to stray adding that and as i have tested two units together i can account
for different auto tracking reactions to identical set up and procedure.
Much has been discussed about this machine, and i have read members opinions and experiences.
Depth was the draw card to most who have an interest in the new Minelab, Minelab promoted as such,
however the noise produced by the coil has, i feel, rendered the claim for large areas invalid, thanks.


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Post  searching on Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:55 pm

My settings are similar to yours, and when I play around with them, I still get small shot in abundance.
A couple of things come to mind. I know I would not pick up those very small targets without a very slow swing speed. As gold has become harder to get in the Golden Triangle, I confess that "small gold syndrome" has taken over and I have become accustomed to crawling over the goldfields for any crumbs available. A fast 7000 operator followed by a slow 2300 operator could give those results. With identifying the target, there is only a small area of the coil that is sensitive enough to pick up that very small shot when waved over the top. You are probably as aware of these points as I am, but I can't think of anything else that could cause your disappointing result.

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Post  Jay Gold on Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:54 pm

Searching, I agree with you %100. If you wave the coil over a small target too fast you will miss it easily. For small targets it has to be swept a lot slower then an SDC2300. You are also correct in the "sweet spot" for the smaller targets. If you're off slightly you can miss them. A slow coil sweep also reduces the ground noise.
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Post  Guest on Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:10 am

G'day All,

I totally agree with the above posts as I have noticed the same, too fast a swing over the smaller targets you can miss the signal. We went out today with our club and found quite a few lead shot some small and some larger and did notice I nearly missed some of these as I swung the coil a bit fast over them. You do need to go slow and low when using the 7000. When running in the General Gold Mode you will notice that the sensitivity will be less on the smaller targets than when running in the High Yeald Mode also.

Cheers.

Mike.

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Post  peterinaust on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:04 am

Now I'm worried, almost ready to hand over the dollars.
Hopefully just a set up issue. Two machines and experienced operators, seems a bit funny.
Think I'll phone a friend and wait a bit.

Peter

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Post  Jonathan Porter on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:38 am

Suggestions and ideas, please do not take offence if some of it is obvious:

The Super D coil has to be used like a DD coil in DD mode on the 5000, you cannot swing too fast or expect a signal response like a monoloop coil. I use a plastic scoop to retrieve targets for two VERY good reasons (you reading this Aurumpro "GRIN" What a Face  (have forgotten your new nick));

1: The signal response on tiny targets can be very hard to isolate on top of the coil, that's because the Rx windings are closest to the bottom of the coil which is more sensitive. So you need to develop better techniques for efficient target retrieval, including agitating the target to the bottom of the scoop before passing over the receive point (I go between the webs on the left hand side of the coil opposite the yaft anchor/swivel point).

2:The GPZ with ZVT is much more subtle in its behavior on distant large targets and also a lot more powerful, its signal response does not rush up at you like a 5000 with a mono, it progressively goes from very faint and broad to a gradual increase in volume. So without realizing it you can easily null out small targets when trying to retrieve them because your too close to the coil with metal objects on your body such as the WM12, speakers, headphones, mobile phones etc!!! Using a scoop will give you extra reach to help alleviate some of this issue. Try to place the control box end of the unit further away from your body and then come in from a right angle from the receive winding when retrieving targets, especially small ones, to avoid the twin receive points at the rear and front of the coil picking up metal on your person.

Ground Balance: As was mentioned in Bruce's white paper, sometimes you can encounter an atypical ground condition when performing the initial critical GB procedure, this can also be affected by salt as well, of which WA has in abundance. A bad GB regime can result in a loss of sensitivity and depth as is being evidence by some users from time to time. When your ear becomes more attuned to GPZ behavior you can easily recognize a bad result by the way the detector is behaving and very quickly remedy the problem. The best suggestion when your not happy with the detector after repeated switch off then on attempts is to do a reset all settings via the Quick Start menu option, once the auto tune has completed still keep the coil away from the ground and do not touch the Quick-Trak button or wave near a vehicle as you change your settings, then go through the walk and sweep procedure again preferably on ground that is free of salt and target like signal responses. Keep off the Quick Trak button for at least 20 to 30 minutes to give the electronics a chance to refine its GB to the local conditions, in WA its preferable to try to keep away from very salty ground as well during this phase.

Hope this helps and please do not feel I am belittling the situation, I take issues like this very seriously.

JP
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Post  davsgold on Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:23 am

Thanks for your reply JP to this issue, I'm sure everyone appreciates your input and experience with this new machine.

cheers dave
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Post  Steve D on Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:46 am

I agree with the comment that you have to swing very slow. When using the 7000 It will take a very long time to cover all of Victoria's Golden Triangle. It is not possible to cover much ground in a day.
The 7000 is certainly able to find lots of shotgun pellets that the 5000 isn't able to find. A couple of days ago I went over an old flogged patch for the second time found only one bit of gold and 14 shotgun pellets. I forget how many pellets I got the first time (lots) but there were 9 nice bits of gold that had been missed by every detector since the 2000.
My main issue with the 7000 is the audio breaking up when using the wireless setup This is most noticeable when trying to locate a target in the scoop ie when you are in front of the control box.
My take on the 7000 is that it is more sensitive than the 5000 but I still haven't found anything at depth as yet. Today I will be trying it out on some deeper ground that hasn't been flogged as much.

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Post  Guest on Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:49 am

I've been using a girly scoop too, it's a must with the tiddlers Q41

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Post  CrazyPete on Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:11 am

Goldgeo wrote:I've been using a girly scoop too, it's a must with the tiddlers Q41

What would our old mate Narrawa think of that Razz Razz Razz
Get ya hands dirty, it's only natural. Very Happy

Pete Cool
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Post  bungarra on Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:00 pm

HI JP and all others who have contributed

Point 1.... in JP's answer is a very important point ...its a pity that wasn't made clearer and highlighted by Minelab..........I had noticed that the coil was quite sensitive at the rear end but did not relate that to being far less sensitive at the front "traditional" end when trying to isolate the target in the scoop

Point 2 ....In my case I do go very "low and slow" and I do use a small "doggy poo" scoop but have been guilty of having the detector parallel / 45deg to me and reaching with my scoop to isolate the target.............at times I did remove the speaker and place it on the ground but never at any time did I actually place the detector in the position JP has mentioned..........and I am surprised that the detector can "null out targets when your trying to retrieve them because your too close to the coil with metal objects"............I assumed that metal objects (belt buckle etc.)  would have given an obvious interference signal that would make the operator realize that something was interfering with the detector rather than "null out" the signal?.....

so it appears the 7000 may possibly null it out or substantially reduce the sensitivity to the target because of the auto ground balance picking up these small metal objects on your person such as belt buckle without alerting us to the fact?

Point 3 ...also very interesting..in my case (and guess others?) I most likely had the coil facing the ground to change some settings...AFTER doing an auto tune....simply because the weight of the thing is inconvenient and its a lot easier to look at and change settings on the screen by holding it down as against pointing it skywards to change.......so maybe another issue that didn't help me in getting the detector optimal?

So in summary it may prove to be in the settings as I had hoped...I am not familiar with the ground in the Eastern States but certainly over here in WA we have some very mineralized ground and the fine tuning on all of these relevant points may have something to do with the fact that the

A)....The positive answers of users on this forum appear East coast based and those of us in WA ...with the goldfields being more remote are some distance from home for many of us......and in many cases not have internet access until back in town....hence not many been "out and back to report in"?
B) ...If so it will be interesting as to how the WA goldfields handle this machine compared to the East...or perhaps I am on the wrong track there.....just guessing about the mineralized ground type?

All answers to my post have been gratefully received and I made it plain in the beginning that I was not knocking the 7000 and hoped it was in the settings but I do sense that Minelab have been a little remiss in not being more specific about some of the salient points that have been raised about the machine...we are detectorists not electronic experts and the it appears the fact this technology is so different to that we have been used to that a clearer more definitive guide would have been helpful

In my case it is a 1500km round trip to get to the goldfields and unfortunately I am not in a position to retune and test all the above immediately.......I can try and do so here on the farm but it is a very sandy neutral ground and is not a good test for mineralized ground.

It will be interesting to read further posts and hopefully the answers to date ....and hopefully more to follow...will help all of us

Thanks

Graeme
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Post  Guest on Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:23 pm

I'm in WA mate and have no problems with most of the ground except salt Neutral
Picks up 0.1g bits no worries in really hot ground, not as distinct as the SDC but definate targets.

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Post  bungarra on Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:41 pm

thanks......keeps looking like fine tuning for me with the settings with the machine ....might I ask if any of the answers have improved your knowledge of the 7000 or not?...it does seem as though you have it nailed....

I was getting the odd shotty pellet but as explained earlier....not clear ....I am sure I was missing gold...in fact I was because the 2300 was picking them up around me......and hard to pinpoint retrieved target's in the scoop........

hopefully it is now going forward for myself and others
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Post  Jonathan Porter on Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:55 pm

Hi Graeme, my answers to you in red......

bungarra wrote:HI JP and all others who have contributed

Point 1.... in JP's answer is a very important point ...its a pity that wasn't made clearer and highlighted by Minelab..........I had noticed that the coil was quite sensitive at the rear end but did not relate that to being far less sensitive at the front "traditional" end when trying to isolate the target in the scoop
GPZ has two receive points that run from front to back parallel to each other (there is a line in the plastics of the top of the coil to indicate the sensitive points)

Point 2 ....In my case I do go very "low and slow" and I do use a small "doggy poo" scoop but have been guilty of having the detector parallel / 45deg to me and reaching with my scoop to isolate the target.............at times I did remove the speaker and place it on the ground but never at any time did I actually place the detector in the position JP has mentioned..........and I am surprised that the detector can "null out targets when your trying to retrieve them because your too close to the coil with metal objects"............I assumed that metal objects (belt buckle etc.)  would have given an obvious interference signal that would make the operator realize that something was interfering with the detector rather than "null out" the signal?.....
If a large metal object comes within proximity of the coil during target retrieval it can mask or null out fainter smaller targets, because the GPZ produces a broad less aggressive response it is not immediately obvious a signal has been generated. Due to the nature of the Super D coil it will be less evident the sensitivity of the detector has been reduced by the proximity of metal objects.

so it appears the 7000 may possibly null it out or substantially reduce the sensitivity to the target because of the auto ground balance picking up these small metal objects on your person such as belt buckle without alerting us to the fact?
The pausing effect of the auto GB of the GPZ is superb, I have yet to ground balance out a good target with it. The issue is when you get too close to the coil during target retrieval with metal objects on your person, which although not obvious due to the more subtle nature of the SuperD coil, can mask the signal of a small target during retrieval.

Point 3 ...also very interesting..in my case (and guess others?) I most likely had the coil facing the ground to change some settings...AFTER doing an auto tune....simply because the weight of the thing is inconvenient and its a lot easier to look at and change settings on the screen by holding it down as against pointing it skywards to change.......so maybe another issue that didn't help me in getting the detector optimal?
It's OK to have the coil on the ground to change settings once the initial walk swing method has been performed after switch on, after start up and especially after a "reset all"" keep off the Quick-Trak button until ready to start swinging.

So in summary it may prove to be in the settings as I had hoped...I am not familiar with the ground in the Eastern States but certainly over here in WA we have some very mineralized ground and the fine tuning on all of these relevant points may have something to do with the fact that the

A)....The positive answers of users on this forum appear East coast based and those of us in WA ...with the goldfields being more remote are some distance from home for many of us......and in many cases not have internet access until back in town....hence not many been "out and back to report in"?
B) ...If so it will be interesting as to how the WA goldfields handle this machine compared to the East...or perhaps I am on the wrong track there.....just guessing about the mineralized ground type?
I have spent considerable time with the GPZ in WA during development so can vouch for the detectors ability to work in WA (well over 100 ounces found in WA), in fact the bulk of my major successes with the detector have been in WA. The main issue in WA is salt, learn to avoid these areas during start up and all will be good

All answers to my post have been gratefully received and I made it plain in the beginning that I was not knocking the 7000 and hoped it was in the settings but I do sense that Minelab have been a little remiss in not being more specific about some of the salient points that have been raised about the machine...we are detectorists not electronic experts and the it appears the fact this technology is so different to that we have been used to that a clearer more definitive guide would have been helpful

In my case it is a 1500km round trip to get to the goldfields and unfortunately I am not in a position to retune and test all the above immediately.......I can try and do so here on the farm but it is a very sandy neutral ground and is not a good test for mineralized ground.

It will be interesting to read further posts and hopefully the answers to date ....and hopefully more to follow...will help all of us

Thanks

Graeme
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Post  AU_Toe on Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:31 pm

G'Day bungarra

Sorry to hear you have been having issues for the Z's, when something is so expensive you expect it to be 'perfect' !!!

As someone who repairs electronics (mainly ICT kit) for a living & has done so for 20+ years I have never had 2 x items in a 'batch' with the same faults, so I think you are on the right track there.

However having said that, I have been sitting on the fence about SDC 2300 for a while now, but, I think you just pushed me off Smile

bungarra wrote:BUT the 2300 handled the ground easily

How long have you been using the 2300 ?


Last edited by AU_Toe on Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Cant spell)

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Post  Guest on Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:43 pm

Gee, 
This gpz 7000 detector sure has been giving some grief......... To some extent which is frustrating especially when a price of $10,700 is being paid for one. It just seems that it is supposed to be easy to operate, but it looks like there is more to it then meets the eye. Shocked

Some precision fine tuning is involved.  V14   V10

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Post  rc62burke on Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:48 pm

Hey JP
Aurumpro is now "Goldhound"
Appreciate your input here!! as this seems like a curley one????
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Post  Guest on Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:32 pm

THANKS JP.   I have only used our z for a few hours and some of the facts that you have addressed are priceless for us in this post and other posts. I wondered where the sensitive point was on coil for getting nugget out of hand.
can you please explain /address more on how you pinpoint a target so you know where to dig so you do not open up such a large hole, as with targets that we had with our 4500 i could mark the ground and dig straight down and hit target without digging such a large hole. There must be a knack that i havent worked out. Thanks TG

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Post  Jack outwest on Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:14 pm

Sorry to hear of your problems with the two 7000s , will be of great interest to many ''  when you sort this out .   scratch

Open question ~ Is each unit fully tested before final sale ?
Another post recently said there was one with a bad coil that needed replacing .

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