JACK LANGE ENERGY SHAFT

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Post  CostasDee on Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:55 pm

Saw this item on eBay. Looks ok but has anyone tried it and can give a report?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110738454098?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Cheers pig
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Post  nero_design on Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:40 pm

I saw that on the latest edition of Gold Gem & Treasure with a writeup on "The Jack Lang Energy Shaft".

Something I read which also appears on your Ebay link: "It utilizes the energy of the swing to bounce it back, dramatically reducing arm fatigue" - This would mean that as the coil is swung to the side, it ends up being pulled back into position again from the elastic on the Bungee cord. I am assuming that this device is meant to act as a replacement for the Hip Stick which is VERY similar in some respects (see illustration below). In fact, one of the first things anyone said is that this appears to be an attempt to reinvent the wheel because essentially, this is a modification of the way the hipstick works. It's hard to say that the Energy Shaft is any better but removing it is going to be a much more laborious procedure if you need to put down your detector and work without it.. But in order for the "JACK LANG ENERGY SHAFT" as it is called, to work as described... it would suggest that the coil is being raised to be able to swing back or it is having to be pushed to one side, allowing it to be pulled back again by the elastic cord. Both methods require (in theory) more physical effort than anchoring the detector to an area closer to the shoulder (where the pull is naturally located)... rather than an area projected artificially from the hip/waist.

JACK LANGE ENERGY SHAFT Original

This would suggest an amount of effort (small or large) is required to drive the coil one way or another. For energy to be retrieved, it must first be expended. Which means an uneven swing might very well result. If not, it would suggest that the detector coil is being raised as the coil is drawn to one side. Either way, I get the impression that it was essentially a variation of the Hip Stick - which was done by moving the location of POINT A on the illustration from the Shoulder to the Waist.

The amount of wear and stress on the Energy Shaft should in theory be greater because the pressure on POINT A is greatest on that spot more than any other on either device.

Anyone else have thoughts? Would you use one or is the Hip Stick your preference?
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Post  CostasDee on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:14 pm

Great drawings nero, and good explanation. What we really need is to test one or someone that has used one to be able to compare it with the conventional hipstick. Reason I ask is sometimes I like to swing my Coiltek 24" DD and there's a couple of kilos there. Sometimes I have to use 2 hands just to lift it over small bushes and I got impressed with the bit about wives and kids can use a large coil. I'd like to see them swing the 24" without any special help....

Cheers again
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Post  Guest on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:17 pm

I wouldn't use either. In 34 odd years I've never needed one and I'm not into big coils. It is just extra crap you have to gear up with. I even threw away my shoulder harness and just used the battery belt around my waist, sooo much easier.
P

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Post  CostasDee on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:38 pm

Panther, if I was into small coils, maybe I wouldn't need one too, but I do like BIG coils and therefore I need a little help to starve off the fatigue for as long as possible.
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Post  Flakmagnet on Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:09 am

Nero,

I have used a Hipstick since it was invented.
It has changed every physical aspect of my detecting - for the better.

The lack of shoulder and arm fatigue is obviously the primary reason for using one,
but a Hipstick also makes it much easier to maintain the necessary mental concentration,
(one of the most overlooked aspects of detecting).

It assists in making the coil swing consistent.

I have used one with large and small coils, in the brush, on slopes and in the flat of the desert.
Working out a quick-disconnect method took all of thirty seconds and from then on
it was simple to lay the detector to the side while digging.

As you pointed out, the anchor point on the Hipstick is high up.
Because of that, the swing is controlled with very little physical effort.

It is easy to shorten up or lengthen the bungie on the detector end
to compensate either for coil weight or for the angle of the slope you are working on.
On this new item, a shortened bungie may be more difficult to work with
when the anchor point is so much lower, but that is supposition.

I applaud all those who say they do not need any more than their arm to swing a coil whatever the size,
but for most of us, over the long run that is not very realistic, especially if you spend a lot of time in the field.

As for the Jack Lang device, this is the first I have seen one.
I suppose it will gain a following too
but the Hipstick has proven itself over years of detecting
and will remain my choice for very good reasons.

fwiw,


Flak


Last edited by Flakmagnet on Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  granite2 on Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:56 am

When the SD2100 came out I slipped a special long bungy through the gap at the top of the handle where the hand strap threaded through. I then tied the bottom end of the bungy low down on the shaft. This gave me a lot longer bungy with a lot more stretch and spring to help keep the coil off the ground, help arrest the coil at the end of the swing and help begin the return swing. It also prevented the detector hitting the ground if it slipped out of my hand, and it sometimes did. The top end was attched at the normal spot on my harness. I used this set up when using every coil except the little Joey coil but it was great on everything larger than a 14". When you used a heavier coil you simply shortened the bungy enough so when you stood upright with the coil down in front is hovered about 1" above the ground. It certainly made swinging even a 24" coil a whole lot easier. Very Happy

Unfortunately you cannot thread a bungy through the top of the handle these days without buggering the wires that come down from the button on top of the handle on later GP's. Not that it worries me nowadays as the lightweight 14x9" mono is as big as I use and they are light enough even for an old codger like me. Very Happy

I can't comment on the hipstick or the Energy shaft as I have never used them but the easy swing was a good product, especially if you had a bad back.

Cheers, Jim
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Post  CostasDee on Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:18 am

Sounds like a good idea granite2, but I fitted a ground balance button ontop of my handle on the SD2200d so I can't try your system, but it dod sound quite ingenious though.
Love to hear from someone thats tried the energy shaft.
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Post  bushgecko on Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:44 am

Regarding the Energy Shaft comment and drawing above; A bungee cord can only help return the coil if the coil shaft hangs down almost vertically from a shaft. Thats why the horizontally protruding shaft is necessary. Also the spring rate of the bungee is critical. I havent used a hipstick although I have heard positive reports of it about supporting the weight of the coil, but it doesn't actually help return the coil does it? Regarding ease of disconnecting and placing the detector on the ground- the Energy Shaft has an inner shaft which slides out with the unhooked (from shoulder) bungee, making it easy. I finished designing this shaft after a year of trial and error because of my arm fatigue issues. Hope this helps. Jack Lange

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Post  Guest on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:34 am

Jack,

Perhaps a video showing you using it would help explain it's use better?

Robert

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Post  CostasDee on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:52 am

Thanks for your reply and explanation Jack. Up to now, I do use a hipstick and large DD coils and find that after a while swinging the 18" and 24" coils, I really get to the point where even though I can push the coils to the extremes of the swing, I find it hard to gather the strength to start the swing back espesially on the far right position having to swing to the left. Your explanation says that it starts the swing for you and if thats the case, then I'm pretty keen to try. As far as keeping the coil off the ground, I think the hipstick does that well too. I am very interested in this but would like to hear from a person that has used this energy shaft, over a few hours, that can say unbiased, that it is better than a hipstick. Better still I actually would love to have one to test without having to put up the cash until I was satisfied - a try before you buy sort of thing. I only suggest this because it's a new concept and there doesn't seem to be enough positive response yet due to the lack of people having used them. I think it potentially has the ability to be a great thing and I only wished I could get some responses from present users.
Failing users responses, I'm willing to be an unbiased tester if you're willing to send one down for testing Jack. But only with the understanding that I will have to be honest with my results and post them on this forum. What you say?
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Post  Flakmagnet on Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:00 pm

Hi Bushgecko,

It is an interesting concept you have there.

I was looking at the photo in the e-Bay ad and have a question for you;
there seems to be quite a downward pull on the shoulder D-ring
where you have the Jack Lange device attached.
One of the reasons the Hipstick works well for me
is that the "stick" part lifts the shoulder D-ring slightly
taking that downward pull off the shoulder and transfering it onto the hips.

I too would be interested to see a video showing how your concept works.


Flak


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Post  flying kiwi on Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:12 pm

Flakmagnet wrote:Hi Bushgecko,

It is an interesting concept you have there.

I was looking at the photo in the e-Bay ad and have a question for you;
there seems to be quite a downward pull on the shoulder D-ring
where you have the Jack Lange device attached.
One of the reasons the Hipstick works well for me
is that the "stick" part lifts the shoulder D-ring slightly
taking that downward pull off the shoulder and transfering it onto the hips.

I too would be interested to see a video showing how your concept works.


Flak



maybe run both at the same time;)
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Post  Jigalong on Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:46 pm

From Marco's excellent diagram, it looks as though the new device would put more of the load onto your shoulder, whereas the hipstick puts more of the load onto your belt.

The inner shaft is an extra "thingie" to take off and put on as well, when you put the detector down. With the Hipstick there is only the top clip to release.

Jig.


Last edited by Jigalong on Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : carnt spel)
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Post  bushgecko on Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:41 pm

The shaft padding sits between the hip and waist centre and so takes some of the weight. The amount of weight felt here can be partly adjusted by adjusting the length of bungee cord under and above the shaft. (But the harness takes some of the weight at all times) This also determines the width of swing one chooses before the rebound effect takes place. Swings roughly between 1 and 2.2 metres wide can be selected. If an operator wishes to stretch the coil forward say under a bush or the bank of a creek, the sliding inner shaft slips forward in its sheath to allow it and yet doesnt pop out altogether. Because my lower shaft is 9" longer than standard to keep my big coils well away from body metals, this leverage places enormous strains on the arms and without this gadget I could only swing for a short time before fatigue and/or soreness set in.

Im flat out at the moment but will try and get a video giving a demo ASAP.

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Post  Chookfoot on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:45 pm

Good to have you onboard Jack.
I've had to learn how to detect left-handed recently because of a nasty bout of tennis elbow.
Maybe this gadget would help .... ??
Anyhow, I'm getting used to doing it south-paw (or is that goofy foot) but digging targets still just plain HURTS ! Sad
Perhaps now what I need is a "go-go-gadget EXCAVATOR" Very Happy
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Post  Inhere on Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:25 pm

Think the hip stick is better and half the price! Wink
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Post  Undertaker on Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:22 am

If the shaft was girthier I would definitely buy one.
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Post  Guest on Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:16 am

I'd like a good fat shaft too Razz Razz Razz

Sorry. Couldn't let that one slip by.

Robert

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Post  bushgecko on Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:07 pm

Hi all, We are practically out of stock at the moment except for couple left on ebay, but will have more shafts available in about 2 weeks. If anyone from this forum buys one and after trying it doesnt like it,we will refund the cost of the shaft (comes with a webbed belt and instructions). Like many new devices it may take a little experimenting with adjustment of the belt position, cord length and position etc to make it work best for you. Cheers, Jack

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Post  CostasDee on Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:20 pm

Sounds fair Jack. Would've preferred a try before you buy option, but I understand that is pretty hard to organise. Money back guarantee sounds fair. My main thing is an easier use and less fatigue using the big DD coils that I love so if it does do that, and isn't too complicated, I'll be happy. Best of luck in the sales...
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Post  stevehowson on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:17 pm

CostasDee wrote:Sounds fair Jack. Would've preferred a try before you buy option, but I understand that is pretty hard to organise. Money back guarantee sounds fair. My main thing is an easier use and less fatigue using the big DD coils that I love so if it does do that, and isn't too complicated, I'll be happy. Best of luck in the sales...

Who offers a try before you buy option, Jack is selling his product which he has stated has already been successfully tested and now it is commercially available. Like anything you buy you read up on it and then make a conscious decission on wether the product would be beneficial to you, I find it a bit strange that a bloke on the forum wants a free test and then give a answer to everyone here if its any good, dont take this the wrong way but who are you to give a evaluation on this product, I for for one could not give a credible evaluation. Its like if coiltek bring out a new coil you go give me one and I will let you know if its any good response would most likely be a laugh.

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Post  davsgold on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:35 pm

Plenty of the detector shops have coils to "try before you buy" of various sizes from the various manufactures, it seems like a good idea to me.

Car dealers also let you take it for a test run, but I agree with you stevehowson that is is a little impractial on smaller not so expensive items, and this is where the maker of the "energy shaft" says "If anyone from this forum buys one and after trying it doesnt like it,we will refund the cost of the shaft" and that should be good enough.

cheers dave
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Post  maka on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:11 pm

I would try one for another reason. I dont have a beer gut...lmao
So with my harness on the waist strap rides up with the weight of the battery, pick water bottle, first aid kit etc on my back.
If this " strap on" helped keep the waist band around my waist, i would be stoked.
The way it looks designed it would surely put some weight on the front ( like a surf rod holder) and hopefully make my day comfortable.
I would like to see it in action thats for sure..
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Post  shelby23 on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:58 pm

Hi

I showed this to a few women from down the Pub not in the hobby, off Gold Detecting.
I think some were wondering if it came in different colors.
I was wondering if you might get arrested if you wear it in the local parks for Offensive Behavior.
Could detector operators get new Nick names, when seen wearing these, how shall we say strap on the front, sticking out thingies.
Of course people will be understanding and not laugh and point and keep the abuse down when you show them your real use; oww my I am having a little laugh to myself as I write this right now.
Just thought I would throw this out there to mull over while I was thinking if I would buy one.

Ps after posting this I had another look at picture at the top of this post and started laughing again


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Post  CostasDee on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:59 pm

stevehowson...
My point is that because this is a new product, people don't know about it yet, seen also by the lack of response from "users" of this product. Jack is selling the product, and not to call him in any sort of way a liar, I wouldn't expect Jack or anyone selling their product to say the product is no good. Therefore I asked for an unbiased test to be made. It doesn't have to be me, it would probably better done by a forum mediator or long time creditable member. It would work out it Jack's favour and get the message out to more people , about this product, if the report was favourable. If you read my reply after Jack offered his money back guarantee, you'll see I applauded him for this.
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Post  Guest on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:48 pm

Hi, the jack lang shaft looks good to me. I use the hip stick but modified it as I am a tall guy and when using large coils and the longest otto shaft on my 4500 I found that I had to keep pushing the coil away from myself. I also mount detector box on shaft in last hole with only one nylon bolt holding it, shaft end is half way through hold/clamp bracket. This gives maximum lenght so handle can be further us shaft for max comfort. With the hip stick I put in extra spacer at top where it conects to D ring on harness. That moves the bungy cord and top of hip stick further out from shoulder area. This causes harness to pull a bit around shoulder but it works fantastic and the bungy cord is more up and down instead of pulling back at you. I know a lot of people only use small coils and would never have this problem but when we detect in WA and looking for new ground Nothing beats a large coil for ground coverage and comfort is the big key. No fatigue.
With large coil, long shaft this jack lang shaft (if adjustable in/out looks the goods).
cheers travelergold

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Post  CostasDee on Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:06 am

Hi again guys, well I've taken the plunge and ordered one to help with the swinging of my Coiltek 18" and 24". Got my kid's b'day party next week so it might be a couple of weeks before I go and test it out, but I'll write a quick report after I use it. Anyone else that has first hand experience is welcomed to write their experience here.
Cheers again...
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Post  detectoraid on Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:47 am

I prototyped the same concept back in 05 while developing the HipStick, In a word it works.

Good on you Jack! It's not easy to bring any product to market.

Chris Porter

detectoraid.com



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Post  kiwijw on Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:37 pm

Hi guys, Firstly.....good on you Jack. I am sure time will prove this as a great addition to ones detecting kit. The one thing I can gather from this thread is that those of you who have been in this game for quite a while, & maybe some of you who havnt, are now suffering or have been for a while, with the fatigue, pain, strain & general damage to shoulder &/or elbow from swinging large coils un aided. Maybe not even from large coils but just the continual un natural back & forth momentum day in & day out. Sort of an RSI.
I think you younger blokes & those of you who havnt been in the game too long should take note of this as I am sure it will catch up with you. Prevention is better than cure. Personaly I use a hip stick & have found it fantastic. I was in the habit of using my 24" X 12" UFO coil & it didnt take me too long to realise that I couldnt keep that up all day, day after day, without causing some permanent discomfort to my shoulder. I think the hipstick came out just in time for me & I now use it on pretty much all coils except the smallest. It is so effortless to use, so why wouldnt you if it helps so much & is going to prevent possible permanent damage to elbow & shoulder?? While your young you may think nothing of it but age will catch up with you & then your joints are knacked for the rest of your life with all the pain & discomfort that comes with it. Then your detecting days arent so pleasureable. Everybody should have & use a gadget like this one of Jacks or a hipstick.
I have recently got myself a 25" coil & plan on using it with the hipstick & a swing arm. For those DIYers out there, here is a swing arm you can knock up for yourself. http://prospecting.atspace.com/detsticknew1.html

Happy hunting

JW Smile
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