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Post  jayvee on Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:05 am

[quot It appears that a lot of people are not conversant with the new gun laws,if you are licenced or not,it is breaking the law to not secure a firearm AT ALL TIMES..
NO EXCUSES.

="davsgold"]"* A word to all those trespassers who keep trying to access the "potato patch" at night (map owners and locals know what I'm talking about): The owner is fed up with interlopers. He patrols the area 7 days a week and sometimes after dark. He's rejected every offer made in recent years to detect there. Word has it a person might get shot if the situation escalates. Respect private property! Don't tick off the locals."

I believe it to be Crown Land and is leased by the said person that does not like detector operators. The "Potato Patch" is well back up above the high water line, and that is the problem. The Park Ranger said that anybody can camp or fish or whatever anywhere between the high and low water line anywhere around the dam as this is part of the "Recreation Area". If you go past the high water mark in certain places like the one in question then that may be a different matter and permission is required as it is a lease.

cheers dave[/quote]
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Post  echidnadigger on Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:36 pm

I cant believe that in this day and age, someone thinks they are allowed to protect their property from trespassers with the use of a firearm.
The stupid clown has absolutely no right to threaten anyone with a firearm. In fact anyone has access to the property until asked to leave. If you don't leave then you are formally trespassing and the police can be called and you can be charged.
If this idiot or anyone like him is seen to be shooting at someone and you genuinely believe you or someone else's life is at risk, then you have the right to shoot to kill.
Of course it would be better to contact police if possible and try to evacuate the area as quickly as possible. Again if you genuinely feel this idiot is putting human life in very real danger then you have the right to use equal and opposite force to stop him.

Another way to look at it is: The moment this idiot fires a shot toward people is the moment he could legally be shot himself.
Brett.
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Post  jayvee on Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:59 pm

[qI agree 99.9 % brett,only thing is if you use equal and oposite force with a FIREARM you would be breaking the law with an unsecured gun.john jayvee.






uote="echidnadigger"]I cant believe that in this day and age, someone thinks they are allowed to protect their property from trespassers with the use of a firearm.
The stupid clown has absolutely no right to threaten anyone with a firearm. In fact anyone has access to the property until asked to leave. If you don't leave then you are formally trespassing and the police can be called and you can be charged.
If this idiot or anyone like him is seen to be shooting at someone and you genuinely believe you or someone else's life is at risk, then you have the right to shoot to kill.
Of course it would be better to contact police if possible and try to evacuate the area as quickly as possible. Again if you genuinely feel this idiot is putting human life in very real danger then you have the right to use equal and opposite force to stop him.

Another way to look at it is: The moment this idiot fires a shot toward people is the moment he could legally be shot himself.
Brett.[/quote][b]
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Post  echidnadigger on Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:24 pm

[quote="jayvee"][qI agree 99.9 % brett,only thing is if you use equal and oposite force with a FIREARM you would be breaking the law with an unsecured gun.john jayvee.
To cut a long story short. A licenced firearm owner does not have to have a rifle secure while it is actually in use.

Part 2. If you did find yourself in a situation where you had to defend yourself or someone else in such a way. You can be sure to find yourself in jail until the whole mess is sorted out.
Brett.
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Post  Scotty on Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:31 pm

Brett,
I am sure if you own property and have it signed Keep out private property that in itself would be more than enough to hold people at bay!
How would you like some clown comming into your suburban back yard without your permission?
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Post  jayvee on Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:08 pm

[quotethe law states all firearms licenced or not must be secured at all times.
part 2. yes. jayvee




="echidnadigger"]
jayvee wrote:[qI agree 99.9 % brett,only thing is if you use equal and oposite force with a FIREARM you would be breaking the law with an unsecured gun.john jayvee.
To cut a long story short. A licenced firearm owner does not have to have a rifle secure while it is actually in use.

Part 2. If you did find yourself in a situation where you had to defend yourself or someone else in such a way. You can be sure to find yourself in jail until the whole mess is sorted out.
Brett.
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Post  echidnadigger on Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:44 pm

Scotty wrote:Brett,
I am sure if you own property and have it signed Keep out private property that in itself would be more than enough to hold people at bay!
How would you like some clown comming into your suburban back yard without your permission?
Scotty
Scotty,
I totally agree.
however, property owners threatening trespassers with firearms has gone by the way of the dodo and is highly illegal.
Jay vee,
How does a person use a legal firearm legally if it has to be secured/locked up at all times?
Brett.
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Post  chopppacalamari on Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:22 pm

Secure:--- to be in safe custody.....

one of the definitions from the dictionary. Safe custody could be carrying the bloody thing. Safe custody includes, and this is taken directly from the firearms licencing course, laying the rifle flat along the ground while you are climbing a fence. When quoting law it helps to finish all the subsections below within the section because it is filled with "persuant to subsection ...... or in addition to subsection...... etc etc etc.

By the time you finish you have probably lost track of which subsection of which section included with part A. subsection 1(A(b3)7) so in the end common sense prevails. MOST OF THE TIME not always because the law IS an ass.

We don't have bears so why would you detect with a rifle?

On the flip side this is Australia. The lucky country. Hardly populated at all. If you happen to kill someone whilst defending yourself then you can just bury them properly and they will never be found. If you tell the truth you can expect a long prison sentence such is our law in action. Most people would be too stupid to make people dissapear properly anyway and if you try to make someone dissapear and get caught then you can expect a long prison sentence because who's gonna believe your self defence claim now? Right? It's a loose / loose situation. Go somewhere else.... Who needs the stress.

dicko..
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Post  jayvee on Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:44 pm

[SORRY FOR THE DELAY BRETT,been busy,firstly CHOPPACALAMARI make a lot of sense,secondly a comparison would be a large fishing
knife,while it is used for its purpose no problem, unless you got no fish,but walk down a busy street waving it arround and bingo.another is the DUI law,exceed .05 bingo on a public road,but theres more,if you read the act,at the end is "OR ELSEWHERE" meaning dont drive your car from the driveway into the garage if over .05
bingo . the law.jayvee




Q="echidnadigger"]
Scotty wrote:Brett,
I am sure if you own property and have it signed Keep out private property that in itself would be more than enough to hold people at bay!
How would you like some clown comming into your suburban back yard without your permission?
Scotty
Scotty,
I totally agree.
however, property owners threatening trespassers with firearms has gone by the way of the dodo and is highly illegal.
Jay vee,
How does a person use a legal firearm legally if it has to be secured/locked up at all times?
Brett.[/quote]
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Post  nero_design on Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:14 pm

NSW gave up some of the largest nuggets in the world and yet people are flocking to Victoria and Western Australia .... although one person suggested to me that whilst people pushed to these other two locations, there would be less gold found in NSW as a result. But the Dept of Mineral Resources are fairly certain that over 90% of the Gold in NSW is still in the ground at various depths. Which is pretty cool when you think about it this way.

Australia is one of those countries where it's illegal to hunt with a pistol. The only people permitted to carry one into a State Forrest, Park, Bushland etc are going to be Police, Federal Police and Customs Officers. Even a long weapon like a rifle or shotgun can only be carried on the property where written permission has been issued. Bending any of the laws usually results in several charges ...and the penalty in NSW is now over $10,000 and/or 10 years in prison (if the weapon is unregistered). Many Prospectors I speak to in NSW claim they always carry something for "self protection" and unfortunately this includes a variety of firearms. Whist they are not permitted to do this (lawfully), I can sympathize with them because the bush can be a lonely and dangerous place. Getting mugged for your expensive detector is very unlikely but not impossible. According the the website for State Forrests, assaults are as common in the Forrests as they are in the city. Just a reminder that those with permits to use/own a pistol are not permitted to take it anywhere but home, the shooting range, the gunstore and their local Police station for a yearly inspection by the licensing officer. Getting caught with it anywhere else will bring down the long arm of the law. There is no circumstance, excuse, legal reason, permit, authorization or situation which allows a person to carry a pistol on them out there. The old 1A Licence ( to carry a concealed pistol anywhere) was abolished in the early 90's due to a kneejerk reaction by our governments. But a knife (even a fixed blade knife) is perfectly legal out there and I have confirmed that this is a practical and logical tool to bring with you and is not in violation of the law as long as it is carried as a tool in the bush and not in the city OR for use as a weapon. If you find yourself attacked by a pack of dogs or needing to use it to cut away your clothing after an accident, it's a useful and practical tool that won't find you falling foul of the law. UNLESS you make the mistake of claiming it is for 'self defense'... which then makes your use and carrying of the knife "illegal". Carrying anything at all for "Self Defense" makes it an "Offensive Weapon" and will give you a criminal record if caught. Accidentally finding yourself of Private Property is a civil incident and requires the land owner to prosecute you. The Police will not charge you for petty trespass but a landowner may do so. It will be up to him to push the case through and prosecute you and most people couldn't be bothered. The Enclosed Lands Act usually applies to people crossing fences and gates and yet I believe they can still take action against any person trespassing even if there are no visible fences etc. If someone challenges your right to detect somewhere, the best advice is to leave immediately and be courteous. You are also within your rights to request some sort of evidence that the person asking you to move on has the right (and authority) to make this request. The reason for this is the number or sticky-beaks who feel their authority extends beyond their own homes... and irritating Greenies who are known to put up signs on public land labellings them falsely as Private Property. Since the locals usually hate any Greenies nearby, they'll sometimes tell you if fake signs are showing up. Nobody in the rural areas likes Greenies. But don't feel bad when you see a Private Property sign either... often this has been placed there because the owner has had problems in the past where people would drive onto his property in the absence of any other signage to guide them. It's often there just to let you know someone lives there and owns it.

NSW is generally a great place to detect and I've only heard bad stories about people who jump fences and steal from private properties (gold or personal property). As you would see on these boards, Prospectors are generally a very courteous lot. I suspect the "problem People" are those who have no interest in the Prospecting fraternity or for our reputation. The trouble makers are probably the ones leaving holes unfilled and angering local residence with bad behavior. By showing courtesy in the Goldfields and by accommodating requests by locals, we can keep a respectable reputation and continue with our quest to find more Gold.

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Post  echidnadigger on Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:58 pm

I own firearms and it is quite legal for me to take them with me on any detecting trip. Either for the purpose of hunting or target shooting. Most crown land can be used for this purpose. While not in use the firearms must be kept locked up and the ammo locked separately. They can even be taken onto private property while in there storage situation. In fact a rifle can be transported across private land while being carried as long as it is unloaded and the breach is open.
I don't see any need for anyone to carry a pistol while on a prospecting trip, but if they have a right to then I certainly don't have a problem.
I do still have a problem with anyone using a firearm to protect property. Whats the excuse, I shot him because he dug a hole in my property? Strewth you cant even shoot someone that you catch steeling your car.
Under no circumstances can someone point a firearm, loaded or not at another person. Not even a property owner.
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Post  nero_design on Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:21 pm

Hey echidnadigger, I believe you have different laws down in Victoria when it comes to firearms. You're permitted to shoot in State Forests and Crown Land but ONLY in Victoria. Up here in NSW, you need a written letter of permission from the property owner to enter their land to shoot. Same with NSW State Forests (contact Forests NSW for a permit and certain calibers are required). Anyone hunting on Crown Land outside of Victoria faces charged if caught. The police are real tough on anyone caught with a firearm that is not taking a direct route to or from their home & the shooting range with it. What I found a little alarming was the number of Prospectors I've met from different states who carry a pistol. I've met 4 so far and have heard of plenty more. I'm sure you'll agree that that's a bit naughty. I grew up in the US & Hawaii and married a Canadian girl - so I have no problem with firearms out there ...although I also acknowledge that Justice and Law are two VERY different things. Back in the 1800's, everyone carried a pistol at one time or another. Those using Iron Discrimination often walk over rusting pistols from the early Goldrush Days. I found a few lead slugs from the 1830's the other weekend.

I think I may have mentioned this earlier but people visiting Sofala and Hill End are often amazed at how many lead bullets and corroding cartridges they find. This is due in part to the fact that the residents of these towns used to hunt rabbits during the winter to sell the fur and meat during the Great Depression. It was often too cold to fossick for Gold or mine it and rabbits became a secondary source of income for them.
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Post  echidnadigger on Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:01 am

We probably should have a whole topic dedicated to prospectors and firearms as I feel this sub topic has hijacked this thread. My apologies to all. Sometimes on a public forum this happens. If it keeps going we will start a new thread.

Nero,
As you thought, I don't agree with people carrying pistols for the sole purpose of defence.
However many prospectors have a history of shooting. Its very much a sport and hobby just like prospecting. With the right approach we can do both. People that read the media propaganda think that shooting is a sport that has been eliminated whilst John Howard was in power. The fact is we can prospect and enjoy shooting as sports. Howard tried to uniform gun laws and it failed. There is not uniformity. Some states have certain requirements to justify traveling with firearms. For instance, WA and NT require notification to the police in advance of the route you intend to travel when you are carrying a firearm. They have the toughest rules.
If anyone wishes to travel with a firearm in other states its rather easy.
You either intend to target shoot while on your travels. ( being a member of the SSAA will help) Or While asking permission to prospect you may be asked and given permission to control feral animals while on private land. All said and done. Its OK to travel Australia with a firearm so long as you follow the laws strictly. The up side is: Since unified gun laws, A gun licence issued in any state or territory is recognised Australia wide, (maybe even in NZ This is yet to be confirmed).
Just watch out for WA law. Its worth getting up to speed on. If you or we get it wrong, they can confiscate the car, van and guns. Bugger.

Brett.
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Post  Nightjar on Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:35 am

Now we are convinced, paranoia has overtaken the East Coast.
Snakes and now firearms!
You fellas are watching too much USA tv.
It is difficult to comprehend the message being conveyed here when the rules for firearm ownership was clearly legislated after the Port Arthur massacre.
And rightly so!
Any law abiding citizen, with out a criminal record can still apply and get a licence for all, up to high powered rifles. (Conditions apply)
This obviously does not give you the right to threaten or shoot the next person who steps onto your property/lease or tries to steal your hubcaps.

Ducking the bullets.
Peter
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Post  echidnadigger on Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:54 am

Nightjar wrote:Sheez Brett,
Get your facts right before posting about WA gun laws!

Peter
Peter,
WA. Gun Law is quoted in many publications. Subscribe to the SSAA and you will read what others have read.
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Post  Nightjar on Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:06 am

Brett,
I don't give a damn what others have read or written about the firearm regulations in WA. The fact is if you do not have a criminal record you can apply and obtain a fire arm licence and traverse the state with the weapon of your choice, legally licenced without having to declare your movements.

Peter
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Post  echidnadigger on Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:13 am

Nightjar wrote:Brett,
I don't give a damn what others have read or written about the firearm regulations in WA. The fact is if you do not have a criminal record you can apply and obtain a fire arm licence and traverse the state with the weapon of your choice, legally licenced without having to declare your movements.

Peter
That's OK if the licence is issued in WA. People moving through your state have other criteria to meet.
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Post  TreatableRiverrat on Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:18 am

[quote="nero_design"]
chopppacalamari wrote:
I bet that they combed the place before they went to paper with that story. .


Last edited by TreatableRiverrat on Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Guest on Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:53 am

Got a WA licence 7 years ago in Kal after a lot of hassle. Different set of laws in Kal. Smile
Had a SA licence but still had to sit a test. So,
" Since unified gun laws, A gun licence issued in any state or territory is recognised Australia wide."
is not correct.
Nightjar, I think they have changed the rules a bit and you now need a letter from a land owner.
giving you permission to shoot on his land.
Cheers Dave. SA

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Post  gollstar on Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:20 am

Hi folks if you have a victorian licence and your guns are registered in victoria they are registered in victoria only and you need to inform licencing divsion atleast 2 weeks before crossing any border.My cousin is in the infantry and has a vic gun licence with vic registred guns and now he is up in townsville he has to register them in qld and probarly has to get a qld licence etc.In essence if you take a gun from one state to another without proper paper work, the gun is unregistered in that state and can be charged as such.Also the transporting of fireams in vic states thats it needs to be in the boot with bolt removed and locked up with ammo you can transport to or from gunshop,shooting range,private property,state forest,crown land,etc.and any shooter in the state forest has as much right to be there as anyone else and most likely are friendly unless they look like ivan milat 🇳🇴As for jumping fences{private property}to detect is very rude and not worth the risk,


ps i allways take a shotty to the bush rabbits make good yabbie bait and yabbies make good cheap fresh flathead bait Laughing
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Post  buck06 on Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:36 pm

if you havent got the b/lls to be honest or see the owner why the hell would you be on private property.
Which makes it harder for everyone else that is doing to right thing and asking the owner to use the property. And it makes it even harder then people that have no respect to clean up after themselfs!!!!! Exclamation Evil or Very Mad
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Post  MS on Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:04 am

I did a trip over to Wedderburn late last year and was on crown land
with a Vic prospecting lic and parked my vehicle just off a track close
to a fence with a private gate close to me of a ajoining property.
I went off detecting, and when I headed back towords my vehicle saw a
vehicle {old white ute} coming towards me on the crown land track he
pulled up next to me with open window and just stared at me saying
nothing.
I said how you going and he just stared at me with an expression of just sucking on a lemon.
He went over to his gate and unlocked it and drove through ,off the crown land and onto his property.
I saw signs on his fence NO DETECTING every 100m or so , and thought what a rude,a,, hole.
I went back off detecting ,and he must of lost sight of me in the scrub
and got himself in a bit of a panic and thought I must have gone
through his fence and onto to his land, He started driving up and down
the fence line pulling out a rifle and firing shots into the air and
ground.
I was not impressed and being a shooter/ hunter myself for many years he was lucky I was not as stupid as he was.
Its hard to explain how it feels when being put in that position and I hope someone some day takes him to task.
I felt like packing up and going home never to detect again, but that feeling didn't last too long and thought stuff him.
I did speak to several people in town and found them all friendly and I
was happy bringing my buisness to this small town and they said my
experiance was most out of the ordinary and he would not have been a
farmer but a small land holder from the city.
Anyway there are idiots out there and you don't even have to be on their land to cause them to get their guns out.
Mark
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Post  Guest on Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:32 am

Gday

I guess the only reason that I would bother to carry a firearm would be if I knew that there were wild dogs in the area I was working, the dingo's are not a problem but the feral dogs are and they will have a go at you, and a shooter told me a short time back that they will also come after you if you shoot at them. affraid

So shooting at a pack of dogs is probably a bad idea, unless they are attacking you and you have no choice,so you are better off just quietly moving away if they have not seen you, and avoiding the area then letting the authorities know where they are. What a Face

I have never needed a firearm in the bush for protection, although I have been creeped out one by a couple I met in the bush that wanted me to camp up with them, and then the guy questioned me as to whether I carried a gun or not, saying that he always has a rifle with him, I went on to say that yes I did and that I have a 45 magnum in my camper loaded all the time just in case, that seemed to end the conversation fairly quickly and made me decide to move on. No

Anyway I am totally against shooting for sport, but have no issue with people shooting for food, and I have confronted shooters in the past as they were shooting at roo's that were in my direction, which pissed me off as they had spoken to me about 30 minutes before hand and knew where I was, they just got a bit exited when they saw the roo's and took a few shots but it could have been bad for me as I was alone and if I had been hit then I could have been in deep trouble, as the area was some 100ks from town, and they would not have known that I had been shot either. Mad

Its easy enough to get a firearms licence here in WA as stated, but a lot harder to get a handgun licence and expensive, its most likely cheaper to buy one on the black market, but if you get caught with anything then your toast, and I think the chances of you needing it here are remote, and another thing to be concerned about is that someone could steal it from you or use it on you if they manage to get it from your vehicle or van. pale

cheers

stayyerAU

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Post  forester01 on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:38 pm

G'day Fellas,

it's probable even likely that what I'm going to say has been covered in the numerous posts which have gone before.

However, be advised that the laws governing self defence are strict and well defined - in all states. If you use a firearm in defence of your own life you have to realize that having been fired upon you MUST use that firearm as a last resort, when all else has failed. Using your firearm (whether pistol or a 'longarm' which includes a rifle or a smooth bored shotgun) to defend someone else is fraught with complications. So you'd better make sure you have absolutely no other choice than to shoot in defence of your friend or another citizen. Warning shots? Yes of course, this could work and could save a few years in prison after inadvisably killing someone waving a firearm around.

To shoot in defence of your property (as in the case of the feral landowner who fires shots in the air)? You're legally permitted to take 'reasonable steps' to prevent the theft of your property. But to kill a man in defence of property? Forget it - unfortunately, because it should not be so. But that's the law. If the offender aims at you and manages to land a killing shot - it's probably murder.

So unless you're looking into the whites of his eyes and he has definitely stated he intends to shoot you, and you have good grounds to believe him, and the firearm is pointing in your direction or could easily point that way - and you preferably have a witness to all this - then do not shoot. Or if you do - make it a telling shot, rendering him unable to provide any sort of witness statement. Unfortunately Australian law is not loaded in favour of the victim.

Mike W
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Post  Greg on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:16 pm

Good Day All.
The answer is simple, If you don't have permission to go there don't go. as for property owners pulling guns they are isolated & they don't know who are or what you have done elsewhere. as the case of the german who went across the top end a few years ago shooting people. you have to admit the occurances of horrific crime has skyrocketed in Australia in the last 10 years. & some of these property owners don't see people for weeks at a time so help is a long way away & they have thier families out there. So get permission or keep out. I have heard of cattlemen being bashed for asking trespassers to leave his property. hence the guns.
Cheers Greg

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Post  echidnadigger on Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:16 pm

What I have got from this topic is the outstandingly obvious.
As prospectors that are also gun owners, we can carry our detectors and guns around Australia (not necessarily over the shoulder on the same day) so long as we are following the rules.
Its rather simple yet it is fact.
Its been a great topic in the way that it has cleared up a few myths and also showed that we still have freedom in this country.
Contrary to the medias portrayal of shooters, it remains clear that a bloke can still go shooting without fear of the heavy hand of the law if he follows the guide lines set out.
Brett.
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Firearms and Guns Empty Re: Firearms and Guns

Post  Beer Beeper on Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:49 pm

Also some people make a secret hiding place in a vehicle with a false trap door for stout, ale, or a tin-can of ice cold beer to have one in the vehicle.

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