Aftermarket for GPZ

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Mon May 21, 2018 8:01 pm

goldquest wrote: If was possible to overrun the chip Nugget Finder would have already made some new coils for the 7000, is the only company, a part Minelab,  that I trust.

I think Coiltek is also a trustworthy company along with the two you mention.

cheers dave
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Ismael on Mon May 21, 2018 10:42 pm

From what I have heard originally Nugget finder was given permission to make the coils for the GPZ and then Codan revoked the permission, also coiltek is partly owned by ML so if anyone was to produce a coil it would be them. There are no restrictions to making a coil for the detector but the problem is how to reproduce the ID chip without infringing on the IP. Again not hard to make it but I am not privvy to the legalities of doing that.
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  alchemist on Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 am

If it's necessary to cut the plug off an existing Zed coil and use that on the OEM coil, then this may indicate the personality chip is embedded in the connector housing?

I understand that with CW detectors you can have an appreciable amount of metal in the coil without reducing performance, but with PI and I suspect ZVT also, any amount of eddy inducing metal within close proximity to the windings is going to degrade sensitivity, thus the need for the ID chip embedded within the cable or connector.

But Minelab do have a patent where they encase any metal containing components in ferrite material within the coil, thereby effectively cloaking it from the coils detection. So alternatively the connector is a proprietary component made exclusively for Minelab, and not easily obtained and the ID chip an off the shelf part, just needing to be programmed with a suitable response to system interrogation, you could easily sniff the ID bus and capture this.

HH
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Ismael on Tue May 22, 2018 12:08 pm

alchemist wrote:If it's necessary to cut the plug off an existing Zed coil and use that on the OEM coil, then this may indicate the personality chip is embedded in the connector housing?

I understand that with CW detectors you can have an appreciable amount of metal in the coil without reducing performance, but with PI and I suspect ZVT also, any amount of eddy inducing metal within close proximity to the windings is going to degrade sensitivity, thus the need for the ID chip embedded within the cable or connector.

But Minelab do have a patent where they encase any metal containing components in ferrite material within the coil, thereby effectively cloaking it from the coils detection. So alternatively the connector is a proprietary component made exclusively for Minelab, and not easily obtained and the ID chip an off the shelf part, just needing to be programmed with a suitable response to system interrogation, you could easily sniff the ID bus and capture this.

HH
Kev.  
 

The chip is in the coil not the connector. Look at the old photos from ML that showed the coil opened and the configuration. There is a tiny PCB which none of the coil wiring connects to...
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  alchemist on Tue May 22, 2018 12:45 pm

OK thanks Ismael for the insight, so it must be the connector that's the problem.
It looks like a special too, having a molded arrow showing orientation.

If it looks like a viable product with plenty of sales the Bulgarians, or whoever's making it should be able to get the connector reproduced.
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Wed May 23, 2018 8:54 pm

I met up with Stan for a days detecting, and I saw this coil in action on his GPZ7000, it's the 18" round solid design, like in the picture, I can tell you it works well runs smooth, just like it should, and it is light weight for the size, weighs about the same as the standard GPZ14" ML coil.

Stan found 6 pieces of gold from a minuscule shallow piece of about 0.1g up to a piece just over a 1.0g I reckon at a few inches deep. So it is sensitive to very small pieces, we were in a well known spot that had detector holes and scrapes and these were found around these.

I did some video of the coil in action, just detecting around and over the ironstone covered ground with ease, and another video of a target which Stan found and left undisturbed and I ran my 7000 with the standard 14" coil over the target, easy loud target no worries, and the new 18" coil on Stans 7000 was also loud and a target that would stop you in your tracks, not very deep but it is what it is.

That's about all I can tell you about it, very impressive and worked well and it never blew up the detector.

I will put up the video when I get some more data, as it's running low right now.

cheers dave
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Travelergold on Wed May 23, 2018 9:05 pm

Dave, wow there is something else that may be available.  I am happy that somebody reliable has seen it in action.
Stan, thanks for helping to bring this about. With negative coments made ones confidence can be a bit deflated.
I will be looking forward to some more results if it may go deeper than standard coil.  Cheers tg

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Stan O on Thu May 24, 2018 11:33 pm

G'day all,

Firstly I'd like to thank Dave and Veronica for helping with the testing of the aftermarket coil. It was great having a second GPZ with the standard 14" coil to compare to and Dave's vast knowledge and experience with the 7000.

Though we didn't come across tricky deep targets the testing showed a few key points:
- The coil was running smoothly over ironstone laden ground. It was cranked up to the max too: Sensitivity 20, no Audio Smoothing.
- The big surprise: it was just as sensitive to small gold as the standard 14" coil.
- The weight of the 18" aftermarket is the about the same as the 14" ML or a tad lighter.
So far I'm very impressed with the performance, which is at least as good as the 14" ML but allows you to cover more ground without the extra weight and fatigue. It actually felt really good having the extra ground coverage, especially in the open spaces of WA.
Another interesting, although very slight, difference that I picked up was the actual sound of the coil dragging on the ground - it was not making that annoying hollow hull noise.

Next week I'll be heading for a 6-day prospecting trip to a few of my patches. Those areas have deep gold and I hammered them good, so it'll be a real good test for the new coil. It already is an amazing coil, but if it punches deeper too...

Big thank you to the inventor of the coil, mate you've done an incredible job.


Travelergold,

I think this coil might be the breakthrough we were waiting for... I'm a prospector just like you. After my trip I'll know for sure: I got good, variable ground; and I know what I'm doing so be assured I'll be giving the coil a comprehensive test and call it like it is. So far it blew away my expectations.
The negative comments don't worry me at all, I don't waste time on those people, it's not worth it. Sadly, if the coil proves to be in a league of it's own, the vast majority of them will be eating their words and squabbling with each other to be the first to get their hands on the new tech.


Cheers,

Stan O

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Stan O on Thu May 24, 2018 11:38 pm

Just a photo of the gold the new coil picked up during testing. Smallest one ended up being 0.08g.

Cheers,
Stan



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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Fri May 25, 2018 10:04 pm

Nice gold Stan, well done, the after market coil on the 7000 works well Very Happy

cheers dave
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Mike54 on Fri May 25, 2018 11:05 pm

Thanks Stan for your test results and sharing your pics of the gold found. T06 Looking forward to hear of your next 6 day prospecting trip results. T25

Cheers.

Mike.

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Kon61gold on Sat May 26, 2018 2:02 am

Fellas, not that I wouldn't want to see a far better coil made for the Minelab GPZ 7000 than what is currently on offer now, but don't anyone here count their chickens before they hatch. Some things are missing from the equation here.
There are some questions that must be taken into consideration. Questions like, is this new 18 inch aftermarket coil design, superior to that of the current GPZ 19 inch coi in depth? for it was only put to the test and found to be as good as the 14x13 so far & or just as light.  It was stated that this new coil is not a straight forward plug in, switch on & go design, without some modifications. Modifications to what, both the chip in the coil as well as the plug end?  It was also stated that this new 18 inch coil is not officially registered?  Meaning that its not officially ready to proceed towards being manufactured for official market, coil release sales?
Even more important & the hardest for me to understand is that, neither Minelab themselves, nor Coiltek or Nugget Finder, (3 of the top leading Minelab aftermarket coil manufacturers in the world), have so far not mentioned, nor come up with something in terms of another aftermarket coil in the pipeline, but an overseas coil producing manufacturer got to do so first? Am I missing something here or what?
Would not any unauthorised modification to any part of Minelabs GPZ or coil design, (without Minelabs official permission), render all warantees by Minelab on the GPZ invalid. These are only some of the questions that still need to be addressed before counting those chickens before they hatch hey?
StanO, with no disrespect to you, your testing, or the person's involved in the making of these new aftermarket coils for the GPZ, but if they can be legitimately/officially made & registered for sale on the open market & proven to work well, without breaking any copy right infringements, tell the manufacturer/s, first in, first served. They'll have it made.
None the Less, I still find it hard to see Minelab siting on their rear ends, not going out of their way, to stop all this from ever happening. Shocked
By the way, nice bits of colour, well done.
Cheers Kon.  T25
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Sat May 26, 2018 9:41 am

Kon61gold wrote:Fellas, not that I wouldn't want to see a far better coil made for the Minelab GPZ 7000 than what is currently on offer now, but don't anyone here count their chickens before they hatch. Some things are missing from the equation here.
There are some questions that must be taken into consideration. Questions like, is this new 18 inch aftermarket coil design, superior to that of the current GPZ 19 inch coi in depth? for it was only put to the test and found to be as good as the 14x13 so far & or just as light.  It was stated that this new coil is not a straight forward plug in, switch on & go design, without some modifications. Modifications to what, both the chip in the coil as well as the plug end?  It was also stated that this new 18 inch coil is not officially registered?  Meaning that its not officially ready to proceed towards being manufactured for official market, coil release sales?
Even more important & the hardest for me to understand is that, neither Minelab themselves, nor Coiltek or Nugget Finder, (3 of the top leading Minelab aftermarket coil manufacturers in the world), have so far not mentioned, nor come up with something in terms of another aftermarket coil in the pipeline, but an overseas coil producing manufacturer got to do so first? Am I missing something here or what?
Would not any unauthorised modification to any part of Minelabs GPZ or coil design, (without Minelabs official permission), render all warantees by Minelab on the GPZ invalid. These are only some of the questions that still need to be addressed before counting those chickens before they hatch hey?
StanO, with no disrespect to you, your testing, or the person's involved in the making of these new aftermarket coils for the GPZ, but if they can be legitimately/officially made & registered for sale on the open market & proven to work well, without breaking any copy right infringements, tell the manufacturer/s, first in, first served. They'll have it made.
None the Less, I still find it hard to see Minelab siting on their rear ends, not going out of their way, to stop all this from ever happening. Shocked
By the way, nice bits of colour, well done.
Cheers Kon.  T25

G'day Kon

First of all this is the only coil in Australia, as you know a lot of overseas soil/ground is nowhere hear as mineralized as here in Australia, so thi coil was sent to Stan to see if it would handle the ground here, well it did that part no worries.

As for blowing out the warranty of the detector, well any of the early ones purchased are out of warranty so that rules that out.

There were NO modifications to GPZ700 itself, and it a person want't to cut the plug end of their own coil and splice an adaptor plug on then it's upto them I would say, no copyright infringements have been made. The "Chip" has in noway been changed or interfered with.

Other coil manufactures here in Australia could also most likely do something but for there own reasons choose not to.

Is it better than the GPZ19"coil only time will tell, but your right it is performing as well as the GPZ14" on shallow ground on small gold and covering more ground with each swing.

No one is counting chickens but as always things have a starting point and then progress from there.

No disrespect to you Kon in this post, I was there to see it in action and do a few cross reference on some targets with my 7000 and film a bit of video on my mobile.

cheers dave
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  kiwijw on Sat May 26, 2018 11:15 am

Hi Dave, Good on you mate. Yes...things have to start somewhere. Cheers

Best of luck out there

JW Smile
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  mbasko on Sat May 26, 2018 11:48 am

Sounds promising!
Wouldn't it be good, now that it has been seen that an aftermarket manufacturer can produce a working coil, if Minelab came to the party with the chip. I don't know that many will be prepared to sacrifice a working coil to make an adapter for an aftermarket one unless proven to be considerably better?
It could work for Minelab to by allowing more versatility & choice for their product + take pressure off them to produce coils & just concentrate on the GPZ by way of software update to optimise the aftermarket coils?
Kon I had heard on the grapevine that an Australian coil manufacturer of note have at least one working coil variant for the GPZ but the need to sacrifice or modify a GPZ14 or GPZ19 coil to make an adapter was or is the stumbling block?

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  slimpickens on Sat May 26, 2018 5:31 pm

I think this coil is matching the 19" behemoth admirably. Hopefully this one will give us at least a 6" depth increase over the 14"  Zed coil or else what's the point? A bit more faster ground coverage wouldn't do it for me. We need depth.

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Kon61gold on Sat May 26, 2018 5:36 pm

No disrespect taken Dave. You guys here all know how much faith I/we placed on the original 19 inch Minelab GPZ coil. Like I said & fingers crossed, its not only the lighter weight/ergonomics of this new coil design we're talking about, but its actual depth potential, over various type/size targets, as compared to the GPZ 19 inch coil.
I for one ain't knocking back, criticizing or doubting your comparison tests with Stan, nor the designer of this new 18 inch aftermarket GPZ coil, just stating whats been said, but can anyone here blame me, for being a little skeptical/baffled as to why our own coil manufacturers here, who have had a long association with the production of aftermarket coils for Minelab detectors, could not come up with something, or were not given the rights to come up with some form of aftermarket coil design/s for the GPZ 7000? Instead, it took a small time overseas coil manufacturer, to figure out a way of bypassing all the red tape in between, so to speak?  This is what I have trouble digesting, not the potential of this new coil or who the designer is/was.
I know for a fact that 7000 users would buy them just for the weight factor/coverage alone as you say.
None the less, Interesting to see how this new 18 inch GPZ aftermarket coil design, compares/stacks up, to the much heavier, Minelab GPZ 19 inch coil?
Easy with "Behemoth" there Harry. Being waterproof & all, don't you think "Leviathan" would suit it better?  Shocked Q35
No stumbling block at all mbasko. If the coil made by one of our Australian coil manufacturers was proven to work well after being modded & show better depth potential, than the current 19 inch GPZ coil, what sacrifice? I'd have it sacrificed that quickly, that the gods themselves wouldn't know where it came from.  Shocked  Q35

Cheers Kon. T25
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Sat May 26, 2018 6:53 pm

Kon61gold wrote: but can anyone here blame me, for being a little skeptical/baffled as to why our own coil manufacturers here, who have had a long association with the production of aftermarket coils for Minelab detectors, could not come up with something, or were not given the rights to come up with some form of aftermarket coil design/s for the GPZ 7000? Instead, it took a small time overseas coil manufacturer, to figure out a way of bypassing all the red tape in between, so to speak?  This is what I have trouble digesting, not the potential of this new coil or who the designer is/was.

Yes Kon I know what you mean, and I have no answer as to why either, because over the years gone, Minelab has allowed after market coils to be used on their detectors up until recent years. I would be happy if Minelab would supply a patch lead as an accessory part (which is really all it is) and then it would really be a (plug and play) system for these overseas coils, or for any Australian company to do the same.

"All of his coils are undergoing testing at the moment, including an 11", 24" and 16x13" for the Z" none of these are in Australia at present only the 18" one.

cheers dave
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Kon61gold on Sat May 26, 2018 8:34 pm

Dave, you know as well as all the rest of us detectorists, our loyalty lies not so much in the cost of an Item, but in knowing that the Item we have purchased, works & works well, regardless of who/what/where it is made or comes from. If its legally made/sold, works well & suits the task/purpose at hand (as in fitness for purpose) is all a detectorist can ask for.
I can only wish the maker/s & testers of these new range/design of aftermarket coils for the GPZ 7000, nothing but success towards their endeavours.

Cheers Kon. T25
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  jasong on Sun May 27, 2018 7:37 pm

I'm curious if there is any indication of these coils are being tested somewhere over here in the US? I would definitely be interested in making some test vids if I could hook up with a tester somewhere this summer. The 16x13 sounds like a perfect everyday prospecting coil. Increased coverage, less weight, and runs a bit better in alkali than the 18 I'm guessing.

Having never used the Z19 I'm curious about the ground results here where the 18 and 14 were run together - did the larger 18" coil on the GPZ do better than the smaller 14" in hot ground such as one expects from a PI? Or does the GPZ act more like VLF here with a larger coil? Curious, because even if it doesn't get more outright depth, the ability to run quieter over really hot ground still usually lets a few deeper pieces stand out enough over the ground noise that the "effective depth" would end up increasing, that combined with the weight and increased coverage would make this a compelling coil for exploration to me for the same reason I like the sound of the 16x13, minus the potential salt issues.

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Kon61gold on Sun May 27, 2018 10:03 pm

If the new range of coils prove to be successful here in/on Australian soil Jasong, one would think it would be only a matter of time before they land on US soil. The overseas markets are the ones with the populations, for that's where most the sales would come from.
Your way of thinking is on the right track though, for that "Effective Depth" you refer to, so as to maintain depth, whilst running silent or more quieter over mineralized soil, or a coil wound specifically for handling Alkali salt, means getting not only the winding's of a coil wound right, but even the type of winding used on a coil, as close to being perfectly matched/balanced, to the output frequency of the detector used. Anything outside this equation, will either lead to hyped up sensitivity (noisy coil) or a smooth running, quiet coil, at the cost of  losing depth over targets.
There are many a type/grade wire out there, suited for coil winding's to experiment with, if it weren't for the exorbitant costs to find out which wire would best be suited for the purpose at hand.
Also as Slim stated, only when that new 18 inch coil, is put up & tested against the GPZ 19 inch coil, over the variably changing, Australian mineralized soils & proven to run far better than the GPZ 14x13  (depth wise, over the much larger multi gram/ounce slugs of gold) &/or have a depth edge/advantage, over that of the GPZ 19 inch (again over the larger multi gram/ounce slugs of gold), would I too consider investing in one.  Otherwise it would serve no real advantage to us here in Vic, over the deeper sections of variably changing, highly mineralized soils.

Cheers Kon. T25
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Mon May 28, 2018 10:19 am

I have managed to downsize one of the videos and put it on youtube, the quality is not very good but you get the idea of how it works.



cheers dave


Last edited by davsgold on Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  slimpickens on Mon May 28, 2018 9:51 pm

Thanks for the video Dave. Looks like it's sensitive to small pieces of gold down to a few inches. Has anyone got any idea how it can be tested to see how deep it will go on say...... a one ounce nugget. Obviously an air test is not allowed (by the powers that be) which made the 19" Minelab coil so sensitive to debate, (and still not resolved it's depth advantage (if there is one) over the magical 14" Zed coil.)
Harry

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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 pm

slimpickens wrote:Thanks for the video Dave. Looks like it's sensitive to small pieces of gold down to a few inches. Has anyone got any idea how it can be tested to see how deep it will go on say...... a one ounce nugget. Obviously an air test is not allowed (by the powers that be) which made the 19" Minelab coil so sensitive to debate, (and still not resolved it's depth advantage (if there is one) over the magical 14" Zed coil.)
Harry

Thanks Harry

Stan is going to run the coil over some deep ground where he has had some success getting bigger specie type gold deep with the standard GPZ14" coil over the next week or so, he is hoping to be digging deeper holes than he was with the standard coil.

cheers dave
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Kon61gold on Mon May 28, 2018 10:11 pm

The quality of the video might no be so good Dave, but the coil even on maximum sensitivity, seems to be running more than well, over that hot rock strewn ground.  Much appreciate you guys going out of your way to put the video up.

Cheers Kon. T25
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  slimpickens on Mon May 28, 2018 10:20 pm

Watching the video again, I still couldn't work out how they determined one of the targets was a hot rock and did not stop to find it. Especially in an area they were already picking up gold from. Most times hot rocks and gold don't sound that different to me.




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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  Kon61gold on Mon May 28, 2018 11:13 pm

Simple Harry, they'v had enough experience to know, that the smooth chocolate brown or satin black coloured looking rocks, that happen to give off a signal, just don't look like gold, so they deserve the boot. Shocked Q35

Kon T25
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Tue May 29, 2018 9:46 am

Kon61gold wrote:Simple Harry, they'v had enough experience to know, that the smooth chocolate brown or satin black coloured looking rocks, that happen to give off a signal, just don't look like gold, so they deserve the boot. Shocked Q35

Kon T25  

Exactly Right Kon Very Happy Harry we were mostly checking how the coil ran on the 7000 this was the first hour or so the thing had been used in Austrslia, It was a good start.

cheers dave
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Re: Aftermarket for GPZ

Post  davsgold on Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:42 pm

After market coil finds a 1 gram nugget no worries, same area as the previous video. Sorry about a finger half over camera lens at the start. Very Happy



cheers dave
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