I got this on the weekend

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Post  TTT on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:10 pm

what a very impressive find well done cheers Terry

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Post  Guest on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:51 pm

davsgold wrote:G'day Adrian

Your giving it a lot of extra gold as a bonus ay.

At 15 DWT = 23.3 g approx, it is a heavy gold coin.
It is really 5 dwt & 15 grains which is 8.81 grams, compared to the later gold sovereigns which were 7.988g and the Adelaide Pound has a slightly larger dia as well at 23mm compared to the later ones at 21.5mm

And hang onto it I will Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 

cheers dave
Yeah I see where I stuffed up. Fixed it.
I'm allowed a stuff up coz I have had the flu for two weeks now along with a three day migrain.
The coin is a keeper tho no matter the weight of gold.

http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/The-Adelaide-Pound-A-Buyer-apos-s-Guide-/10000000000921443/g.html


Last edited by Adrian SS on Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  detecta2 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:16 pm

Hllo Dave an V,in Tib at the moment in some out of the way places,love to see any coin or a nug to show were in a good spot,nice piece you have there, good on you cheers phill

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Post  Guest on Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:22 pm

Great.Great.Great.

In this case Gold content has no importance at all.
This is one of the most important coin in our history ( Definitely The most important Gold coin).
Forget the value of gold in Renics books and Downies estimate.
I think most of forum member have not realized yet about significance of Dave find.
This is the Holy Grail type od find from the coin detecting/ collecting.

And dont you worry about how much is worth: If you decide to selll it one day you will get
much much more for it.

Now just stop for a second and think who held this coin in his/her hand.
Mind blowing.
That is the difference of gold find -nugget who most of the time no one held before you.
(just to be cheeky as usual it will be worth more then 20G just to find out with what detector. Evil or Very Mad 

Golden

What I can say but simply:
You made my day.



Well done.Awsome find.Enjoy it.



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Post  Ronnie on Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:30 am

golden wrote:Great.Great.Great.

In this case Gold content has no importance at all.
This is one of the most important coin in our history ( Definitely The most important Gold coin).
Forget the value of gold in Renics books and Downies estimate.
I think most of forum member have not realized yet about significance of Dave find.
This is the Holy Grail type od find from the coin detecting/ collecting.

And dont you worry about how much is worth: If you decide to selll it one day you will get
much much more for it.

Now just stop for a second and think who held this coin in his/her hand.
Mind blowing.
That is the difference of gold find -nugget who most of the time no one held before you.
(just to be cheeky as usual it will be worth more then 20G just to find out with what detector.  Evil or Very Mad 

Golden

What I can say but simply:
You made my day.

Well done.Awsome find.Enjoy it.

Q33  Well said Golden.  Q15

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Post  UrbanFox on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:10 am

davsgold wrote:There is not many of these left, and have become very rare, so I am fairly happy with this one.  Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 

Adelaide Pound type 2

cheers dave
Hi dave, I cannot help but quizzically review the condition of this coin, and wonder how the coin got to be in the condition it is in. The Adelaide Pound was evidently not a large circulation coin, and it appears that all existing examples have very little of the surface abrasion and impact conditioning evident with this coin. I am not a numismatist, and so have little knowledge of the wear expected in a coin of this age, and am interested to know more.

Also, have you identified what make and model of detector you used to find this coin?

Certainly an interesting find.

Cheers.
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Post  Minermike on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:53 am

Looks like it has been in a river to get all those abrasion marks.
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Post  davsgold on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:58 am

G'day UrbanFox

Your right it does make one ponder how and where this coin has been to get so much character ( wear Very Happy ) as it has. It seems only about 24,000 of the type 2 coins were ever made, and because they had more gold in them than the face value of 1 pound, most of them were melted down Rolling Eyes 

They say about 200 survived which vary in condition from very good to not so good, as you can see Very Happy  still just to have one is bloody awesome no matter the condition Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 

One day in the not to far distant future I will take it and have it appraised/graded just for my own satisfaction Very Happy 

cheers dave
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Post  kon61 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:07 am

MinerMike,you might not be far wrong from that statement there. The greatest number of coins found on our goldfields were by dredgers(back when it was legal to dredge) in major rivers or creeks that were gold bearing and had constant water flow.Off course it makes sense that many a coin would be found in places such as these,for miners panning for gold were always bent over or squatting down.Hence coins were constantly being dropped out of their pockets.Am I making any sense here people?

         Cheers Kon.What a Face
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Post  slimpickens on Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:58 am

A very interesting coin Dave.
Is there a coin nerd on here who could have a guess as to the condition of Dave's coin

This article was originally printed in World Coin News.



Noble Numismatics’ April sale in Sydney contained examples of both types of South Australia’s (Adelaide) gold pounds: KM-1 and KM-2. They sold for quite different amounts. KM-1 fetched $116,500 in aEF; KM-2 made $34,500 in aUNC.

The coins’ story and the reasons for the price disparity date back to the 19th century, well before the Australia of today became a political reality.

In the 19th century the Great Southern Continent consisted of a number of more or less economically and politically independent British colonies. The situation was akin to that in eastern North America in the 18th century prior to those colonists staging a minor tax revolt.

In 1851 gold was struck in what was the newly independent Colony of Victoria. Next door in South Australia, the workers promptly packed their bags and grabbed their picks and shovels to head across the border to make their fortunes. They took with them much of the state’s loose change. The absence of both able workers and ready money triggered major economic difficulties for South Australia.

Businessmen in Adelaide, the state’s capital, appealed to the Colonial Governor, Sir Henry Young, to establish a mint that might encourage ex-pat miners to send their gold dust home to be converted into coin. Sir Henry refused as he realized to do so would usurp the royal prerogative of coining.

When South Australia’s economic situation went critical, a compromise was hammered out. It was agreed that the South Australian Assay Office would produce ingots of certified weight and fineness. They were not intended to be used as coins but were to be deposited with the banks as security against note issues.

The Bullion Act was pushed through South Australia’s Legislative Council in a couple of hours on 28 January 1852. The price of gold was fixed at £3.11s.0d an ounce, a price 9 shillings an ounce better than the miners could get in the Victoria diggings. (At the time US$1 = 4 shillings i.e. £1 = US$5.)

Over the next 22 months armed South Australian police made frequent journeys across the 340 miles to the diggings in Victoria to collect any gold the miners wanted to send home. In all 328,510 ounces were brought back to a total value of £1,529,409.17s.10d. A further 1,666 ounces arrived by sea. Of the total 6,238 ounces was written-off as “unavoidable loss in smelting”.

At first this gold was converted into ingots of varied shapes. Each was stamped with its weight and fineness. In numismatic circles these are now known as Adelaide ingots.


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Up to a point these proved acceptable to banks. However, both South Australia businesses and public wanted standard value coins, not variable weight ingots. Sir Henry was not keen but finally in November 1852 the necessary amendments were made to the Bullion Act to allow for issue of 10 shilling, and 1, 2- and 5-pound pieces.

The Assay Office had dragged its heels in getting the ingots prepared but it was way ahead of the game when it came to the new coins. A die-sinker, Joshua Payne, had been employed by the Office the previous March against such an eventuality. He had prepared dies for one pound coins well in advance of the legislation. These enabled striking to commence somewhat prematurely in September. By the time the legislation was passed two months hence preparation of the 5-pound dies was well under way.

The obverse of the pound shows the Imperial crown above the 1852 date set in a circle ornamented with beads, denticules and crenulations. Two rosettes and an inscription, GOVERNMENT ASSAY OFFICE/ ADELAIDE, lie between this circle and a denticulated rim.

The reverse carries the legend WEIGHT 5DWT:15GRS: / 22 CARATS also accompanied by rosettes. It is separated from the inner field by one beaded and two plain-lined circles. The field bears the words VALUE / ONE / POUND in three lines.

A crack developed in the reverse die after just 30-40 coins were struck. It extended from the rim to the inner circle to the left of the D in DWT. All subsequent coins struck with this die show this mark. None of the earlier-struck Type 1 coins lacking the die-crack are known today.

A replacement reverse die was engraved by Payne. It differs in a number of respects from the original. Gold coins struck with it are referred to as Type 2 pounds to distinguish them from those made with the original die which are now called Type 1.

On this second reverse die:

• The lettering is sans-serif as opposed to the serifed font used on Type 1 coins.
• The outer rim is plain or weakly denticulated at best;
• The beaded circle about the field is bounded by a single toothed and crenulated line;
• The lettering in the inner field is smaller than in Type 1;
• The lettering of the legend is slightly larger than in Type 1;

Of course there is no die crack on all Type 2 coins.

The designs of the £5 piece are similar to Type 2 pounds but the coins are 32 mm in diameter against the pound’s 23 mm. All the lettering on the £5 is sans-serif and the name of the engraver J. PAYNE occurs in small letters below the date on the obverse.

Of the one pound pieces 24,648 were struck between September 1852 and February 1853. Officially they were described as tokens.

Assays at the Royal Mint found the Adelaide pounds contained gold worth two shillings more than their face value. This led to many being exported and/or melted down. Contemporary reports claim they provided a favorite source of gold for Adelaide dentists.

Greg McDonald’s Pocket Guide to Australian Coins and Banknotes gives the composition of both the one and five pounds as 91.67 percent gold and 8.33 percent silver. Monetarium’s Quartermaster Collection gives the same percentages but has the gold alloyed with copper. Certainly silver was preferred in the early days of the Sydney Mint until instructed by the parent Royal Mint to revert to copper.

The two books also differ over the weight of the two pounds with McDonald going for 8.69 g for Type 1 and 8.81 g for Type 2. Monetarium has Type 1 as 8.74 and Type 2 as 8.75.

The initial reaction of the British Government to their striking was favorable, until Westminster saw the actual legislation. At that point Sir Henry Young was told there would be no royal assent forthcoming for the Act, “which might be construed to confer upon the Governor the power of exercising the Royal Prerogative of Coining.” He was advised in somewhat strong terms to repeal the law or, at least, its offensive parts. In the event, the Assay Office had closed some six months earlier. Its assets had been sold-off apart from 44 oz of unclaimed gold.

Bill Myatt’s and Tom Hanley’s Australian Coins, Notes & Medals quotes an 1894 report to the effect that no more than six original striking of the £5 coins were made. There is no evidence that any were ever issued and none are known to exist.

But in 1919 the Melbourne branch of the Royal Mint borrowed the £5 dies and struck examples in both gold and silver for their own collection and that of the Royal Mint itself. Twelve were produced of the gold with the excess offered to collectors for the value of their gold content (about £10 or $50). There were few takers and in 1929 five were melted. Of the seven remaining, five are in museums and two in private hands.

Today a maximum of 50 examples of Type 1 pounds are believed to exist. At one point Tom Hadley’s Quartermaster Collections contained 17. Two varieties are known of Type 1 with different reeding:163 vs. 100 notches. It is unclear which is the scarcer. Of the Type 2 a few hundred are believed extant; all show a similar wider, 100-notch reeding.

All Type 1 command a respectable price at auction regardless of grade. February 1998 saw a gVF example fetch $135,300 at a Roxbury’s sale in Queensland. In June 2007 Spink sold a gVF/aVF example in London for $80,000. That offered in the Quartermaster sale in 2008, the finest known, made $320,000. That sold by Noble Numismatics in April this year took $116,500 in aEF.

By comparison, a Type 2 in VF will set you back just $15,000, or perhaps $45,000 in EF. But be prepared to pay well over $100,000 for a choice UNC example.

The term, “Holy Grail of Australian numismatics” is somewhat overworked. However, it would seem appropriate if any of the original Adelaide 5 pounds were to surface or, for that matter, one of the Type 1 pounds struck prior to the die cracking. However, none have been located in over 100 years of searching. Indiana Jones, where are you?


Last edited by shiraz on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  matelot on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:00 pm

Well done, Davsgold.

Could you give us some details of the find? How deep? What detector and coil?

Regards Roger. pirat 
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Post  slimpickens on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:19 pm

matelot wrote:Well done, Davsgold.

Could you give us some details of the find? How deep?  What detector and coil?

Regards Roger.  pirat 
What detector?  Dave won't be able to answer this till all the freebie offers and bribes ( sorry, bribe is such a harsh word) err.... incentives are in from all the detector manufacturers to jog his memory as to what detector he found the coin with. Evil or Very Mad  Twisted Evil   Laughing Hold out for the best offer Dave.  Sorry to hear about your amnesia Wink
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Post  matelot on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:29 pm

Sorry I forgot. Must be the XXXX (that's code for beer).

Regards Roger pirat 
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Post  Guest on Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:16 pm

Good read Shiraz, Thanks for putting that up mate.

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Post  TWO BOB on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:21 am

Dave, Fantastic Coin Laughing ( whether Detected or not. ) We all wish we had one.
            Cheers
           "TWO BOB"
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Post  Guest on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:12 pm

If you have got a gold 5 pound coin (You won't have so dun bovva lookin) It would be worth a quid or two.
Only 6 minted, never circulated and then 2 restrikes of 10 in total. This coin is cited as a National Treasure.

I got this on the weekend - Page 2 Dscf4012

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Post  Cal on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:13 pm

No personal vendetta here Dave, but in my opinion your post is not a fair call when such an important coin is the topic. Posted in 'General Discussion' and no reply from you on whether it was detected or not, I believe we all deserve an answer on whether one of us has any chance of detecting one of these in our lifetime, especially if it was detected on a goldfield, rather than during a dedicated coin hunt. At the moment, all I see is an ego wank that you own one, so please answer the question - was it detected on a goldfield?

Cheers Cal
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Post  Guest on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:21 pm

N/T


Last edited by Adrian SS on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:16 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post  MS on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:41 pm

Cal wrote:No personal vendetta here Dave, but in my opinion your post is not a fair call when such an important coin is the topic. Posted in 'General Discussion' and no reply from you on whether it was detected or not, I believe we all deserve an answer on whether one of us has any chance of detecting one of these in our lifetime, especially if it was detected on a goldfield, rather than during a dedicated coin hunt. At the moment, all I see is an ego wank that you own one, so please answer the question - was it detected on a goldfield?

Cheers Cal
I think you will find Dave is saying all he can and you need to read between the lines, our miners rights allow us to find and keep gold nuggets , just the same as you won't see any big gold nuggets being found in SA , they are all found across the boarder in Vic or WA where your allowed to find and sell them.
Thanks for posting up Dave and thats one top coin
Cheers Mark
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Post  davsgold on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:41 am

Cal wrote:No personal vendetta here Dave, but in my opinion your post is not a fair call when such an important coin is the topic. Posted in 'General Discussion' and no reply from you on whether it was detected or not, I believe we all deserve an answer on whether one of us has any chance of detecting one of these in our lifetime, especially if it was detected on a goldfield, rather than during a dedicated coin hunt. At the moment, all I see is an ego wank that you own one, so please answer the question - was it detected on a goldfield?

Cheers Cal
G'day Cal

You have a bit of a strange way of trying to ask for extra info, I could have posted pics of the coin sitting on a coil of a GPX5000 or a CTX3030 but then there would have been people that would say that was a setup as well, so no matter.

was it detected on a goldfield?
no it wasn't

At the moment, all I see is an ego wank that you own one,
that's not quite how I see it, but yes it is mine, and it is an important coin in Australian history.

As for finding one, well anything is possible, who would have thought a Holey Dollar would have been found at Hill End as these are just as rare as the Adelaide Pound.

I feel pleased to be able to hold this piece of history and just look at it and wonder where it has been.

Adrain SS

Looking at a lot of pics of these coins there seems to be a bit of a common fault in the outer lettering in the same areas. This was the first attempt in Australa at making a coin and they were never perfect, most have a weak strike pattern on one edge. As for the rest of to dings and wear pattern I have no idea except to say it sure has a lot of character Very Happy 

cheers dave

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Post  Guest on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:11 am

I thought it may have been a Type One strike.
These coins were struck from a faulty die and had cracks. I thought I could see a crack running through the leter A in Adelaide. but it does not appear on the other side so guess it is not a type one gold pound. Plus type one strikes had a beaded inner circle and in any case the crack was in the die not in the coin, the coin was flawed in the position of the die crack.
Nice find in any condition considering that most of these coins ended up back in Englan for profit, except for some that were held by the banks and were melted into bullion.
Anyway she's a keeper mate! Very Happy

I dissagree that the strikes were rough.

http://taxfreegold.co.uk/1852australiaadelaidepound.html

http://www.cruzis-coins.com/sovs/sov3.html


Last edited by Adrian SS on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:40 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post  davsgold on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:28 am

Adrian the same thought crossed my mind that it may have been a type1 before the die crack developed, I read up on it and some of the other features of the type1 were a bit different to the type2, so it's a type 2 that has had a hard life. Laughing 

The line you see near the "A" is a small bit of hair and because I used the super macro to take the picture everything is showing up. I saw the line in the pic as well and cross checked it with coin later and it's not there.

The die crack on the type1 is in a totally different position as well.

It's all very interesting anyway.

cheers dave
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Post  davsgold on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:42 am

Adrian SS wrote: I dissagree that the strikes were rough.
Yes those ones in them links look real good ay.  But then in this link where the same edge as mine has a much softer strike on the same place even though the coin is in much better overall condition.
http://www.downies.com/Rarities/1852-Adelaide-Pound-Type-II-VF/3315/productview.aspx

Even this one from the same site in gEF/aUNC has a similar but not as pronounced weakness on the same outer edges
http://www.downies.com/Rare-Coins/1852-Adelaide-Pound-Type-II-gEF-aUNC/3312/productview.aspx
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Post  Guest on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:53 am

 ARGH! voze wunz iz duds mate. Q24 Q35 

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Post  davsgold on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:57 am

Adrian SS wrote: ARGH! voze wunz iz duds mate. Q24 Q35 
Yep just chuck em away ay Q35 
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Post  Guest on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:03 am

Yeah! I got a 5 pounder stuck on my bedside cabinet draw knob as decoration. clown 

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Post  davsgold on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:11 am

Adrian SS wrote: I dissagree that the strikes were rough.

http://taxfreegold.co.uk/1852australiaadelaidepound.html
I just realised why this one looks of good Laughing

"Modern Replicas
As with many rare coins, modern replicas have been produced. The coin in our photographs is a replica or the Type 2 variety."
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Post  Cal on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:17 am

Fair enough Mark, I hadn't thought of that angle:oops: 

Dave, my comment on the state of your ego was not appropriate, particularly in light of Mark's suggestion. No harm intended, I was just extremely curious without putting too much thought into my approach.

Very nice 'aquisition' Dave, well done

Cheers Craig
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Post  davsgold on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:23 am

G'day Cal

No worries mate,

No harm intended
None taken

cheers dave
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Post  gusbus67 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:30 am

Well done Dave ,There are two of these in the Melbourne museum, if any body wants to see these rare coins up close.The dies were recovered some time ago and a number were re struck in different materials for the museums.
Regards Ron.
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